- cross-posted to:
- usauthoritarianism@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- usauthoritarianism@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/15035901
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The only surviving adult MOVE member, Ramona Africa, refused to testify in court and was charged and convicted on charges of riot and conspiracy; she served seven years in prison.
Jesus Christ! No criminal charges against police so let’s imprison the sole surviving victim!
(She did get a handsome settlement years later, so there’s that but holy hell man)
Devil’s Advocacy, read at your own risk:
According to the police, they evacuated the civilians from the area and engaged in a gunfight with the compound which housed known terrorists called MOVE, an anti-government and anti-technology religious organization whose members were all black and changed their last names to Africa as a form of symbolism who had years earlier killed a police officer leading to a lifelong conviction for 9 of it’s members.
The terrorists were armed with automatic weapons and a gas generator on the roof of the compound. After the 2 small bombs opened a hole on the roof and took out the generator, the terrorists supposedly even shot at firefighters who approached the scene which allowed the fire to spread. 61 home burnt with Six adults and five children as fatalities.
My take: The police should not have automatic anti-tank rifles or C4 Satchel Bombs. They should never have attempted to preemptively remove MOVE members from any residence, regardless of the status of their parole. This is not the job for people with less training than the people who cut hair for a living. The city held on to some of the corpses for 35 years, and all of the children were cremated and buried in unmarked graves, which is pretty fucked up.
But also, I’m certainly not on MOVE’s side in this situation. Those morons fucked around and found out. The fact that there are people around today who know about all this and wanted to pick up that banner for themselves is beyond moronic.
*terrorists as labeled by the fucking mayor…
We got goddamned Vote Quimby down here deciding who’s a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Edit: -Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
-what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
-you mention that anyone picking up their banner today is (some derogatory term I forget). Can you really not see why someone would look to extremes when faced with systemic oppression?
-and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
They are also victims, none of the things that occurred on May 13th should have ever happened with competent and respectful leadership and negotiation perhaps by the FBI or actual service members, but being a victim doesn’t erase every stupid indecent thing people have ever done.
Those children died in the cult’s basement. MOVE continued shooting at Firefighters after their roof burst into flames.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
Thank goodness it wasn’t the same scale as that event, but at least the FBI attempted to negotiate and staved off a full offensive until 51 days had passed. If the Philadelphia police had shown that kind of respect and restraint then things might have ended a lot differently for the MOVE members.
And yet the Waco siege is still a rallying cry for anti-government groups accusing the FBI and DEA of unjust, violent overreaction, while the MOVE bombing is not. Huh, I wonder what the difference is? /s
Could unironically be the difference in body count.
Terrorist is just a loaded word. Like Hamas is a “terrorist organization” but the state of Israel isn’t.
Terrorism often boils down to “enacting violence against systems of oppression”. Is the IDF a terrorist organization? What about the DoD? These organizations use violence to perpetuate existing systems of oppression, causing vastly more harm than any domestic “terrorist” organization ever will.
While these 11 people were being killed by the state for being “terrorists”, the CIA was backing fascists (contras) to overthrow democratically elected socialists in Nicaragua. Is the CIA a terrorist organization?
No man they literally threatened to bomb other countries for shit happening in the us, that’s everyone’s definition of terrorism.
This misses the point. If we’re being technical, Hamas/MOVE is obviously a terrorist organization. Trying to convince me that they are isn’t going to change my position, because I already believe that.
It’s just that in-so-far as Hamas/MOVE etc. are terrorist organizations, the CIA/IDF are far larger ones. They inflict terror and use violence for political gain, the only difference is they’re the ones in power so they decide who is a terrorist.
That’s the problem with the word. The IDF and Hamas are both violent terror groups that shouldn’t exist, but Hamas only exists as a result of the IDF’s genocidal campaign, and yet we only call Hamas a terror group. It’s deeply problematic.
Correct.
That’s whataboutism, multiple wrongs don’t make a right and none of MOVE’s actions are forgiven by this argument.
Calling this whataboutism is like responding to the claim “people have a biological urge to reproduce” as a naturalistic fallacy.
You’re using the word in sorta the right ballpark (I did make a comparison, e.g a “what about”), however not every time someone says “what about X” are they committing a fallacy.
My entire point was how terrorist is a loaded word, that we only use it to describe one side (the side not in power), even though the technical definition obviously fits organizations in power. Making a comparison to demonstrate my literal only point isn’t fallacious.
There were native american terror groups, yet the U.S government that literally genocided millions of native Americans isn’t a terror organization, despite their use of terror and violence to achieve political goals. It’s a word with clear problematic etymology.
The CIA supporting Fascism in South America has fuck all to do with a confrontation between militarized police and a cult on May 13th 1985 in Philadelphia. If you think that’s not whataboutism then you’re dumb as a sack of bricks.
Oppressed groups have an internationally recognized right to resist.
This was 1985. If they were discriminated against then they could have settled it in the courts, not by forming a cult and fortifying a compound.
Idk, I’m several drinks in atm, but you’d make big money picking cherries.
*terrorists as labeled by the fucking mayor… a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Alos Warrants for making terroristic threats, illegal possession of firearms, parole violations, contempt of court
Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
And automatic weapons. You used the … to erase the automatic weapons part.
what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
Wow, not knowing where people store their generators is the bar for criminal stupidity? I have a different bar
and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
/s
Seriously, if you start a business picking cherries, I’d like to invest, I haven’t seen anyone so skilled since 2020
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
I’m not saying it’s the same but the Bundy standoff comes to mind as a recent example where a buncha good ol’ white boys barricaded themselves in a compound, and they weren’t bombed. They didn’t fire upon cops but they did imply that they were ready to if they were raided.
Everybody is in agreement that the cops grossly mishandled the situation on May 13th 1985, and it serves as a great argument for the demilitarization of police in the USA. The problem is some people in this forum want us to think this was a random unprompted massacre of ordinary people, which is pretty far off the mark.
A bit boozy myself, so here goes:
- criminals, not terrorists
B) you called out the gas generator like it was some Lclandestine munition.
- getting a little racist there, aren’t cha?
- Drink less than I am, please! See above for why they weren’t just people vibing at home while the cops decided they were criminals for existing, fuckheads had automatic weapons and were happy to use them
B) Not sure what a generator has to do with Lclandestine munitions, or what those are
- What the fuck even? Go to bed bud
Qualified fucking immunity
Yet another thing to go after the revolution.
Don’t need qualified immunity if there are no cops left.
Damn straight
Ah yes murder all the police with militaristic fanatics then we’ll never have to worry about crime or corruption again! It literally can’t go wrong!
The police obtained arrest warrants in 1985 charging four MOVE occupants with crimes including parole violations, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terroristic threats. Mayor Wilson Goode and police commissioner Gregore J. Sambor classified MOVE as a terrorist organization. Police evacuated residents of the area from the neighborhood prior to their action. Residents were told that they would be able to return to their homes after a 24-hour period.
There was an armed standoff with police, who threw tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them, and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued for 90 minutes… At 2 p.m., Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.
From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department proceeded to drop two 1.5-pound bombs (which the police referred to as “entry devices”) made of Tovex, a dynamite substitute, combined with two pounds of FBI-supplied C-4, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house. The bombs exploded after 45 seconds, igniting the fuel of a gasoline-powered generator and setting the house on fire, which was left to burn. Officials later stated that this was to let the fire burn through the roof and destroy the “bunker”, so police could then drop tear gas into the house and flush out the occupants.
30 minutes later, firefighters moved in to control the fire but there was gunfire and the firefighters and police were ordered back as the fire spread to neighboring houses down the street.
The only two MOVE survivors, Birdie Africa, who was 13 at the time, and Ramona Africa, both escaped the house. Police initially said that two men had also run out of the house at the same time and fired at them and that police had returned fire. Ramona Africa said that police fired at those trying to escape. Police said that MOVE members moved in and out of the house shooting at the police. The fire department later declared the fire under control at 11:47 p.m.
Seems reasonable
Bombing a house in the middle of a residential area seems “reasonable”?
A judge and jury found the police department used unnecessary excessive violence and violated constitutional protections against unlawful searches.
That’s definitely sarcastic.
We got some messed up people on this site already we can never be too sure.
I hope so, yes.
Nah, police weren’t adequately trained to handle something on this scale. Something had to be done, but not by police with satchel charges and an anti-tank machinegun.
anti-tank machine gun
What?
Yeah the city police had and used it. Crazy, right?
What is an anti tank machine gun?
In WWI there were attempts to bring down early tanks with heavy machine guns (the armor was not that thick back then)… but i am not sure if this is an official category.
ehhhh, I assume the guy meant an anti-material rifle? or some sort of autocannon if it actually is like a machinegun because anti-tank rifles are very antiquated and not a thing anymore, at least as a modern term for these weapons. That kind of thing got phased out since world war 2.
My best guess is that they meant an M2 browning and just knew they were mounted on some tanks, then assumed they were meant for tanks. They were meant for AP and AA use if im not misremembering.
A big gun with big bullets that shoots really fast. Fuck if I know the model, but the police had and used it in this event.
I’m constantly told the 2nd amendment exists for the express purpose of shooting cops. Are you saying the 2nd amendment is in the wrong here and that police should have access to weapons denied to ordinary people?
2nd amendment is supposed to keep the government in check. the fact there are guns citizens cannot get but the government can is a travesty
I want a god damn 25 megaton nuke tyvm.
Where’s my crew-served armaments? When do I get to own a cruiser?
FOR REAL nobody fucking with the guy with a nuke
deleted by creator
If that’s all true, then that adult and child from the cult who lived are lucky they lived after their cult had the gall to shoot at firefighters.
EDIT: added words
You’re assuming that both of them, including the 13-year old, fired at the firefighters?
No but I am assuming the two of them were a part of the larger MOVE group referred to as “they”, especially given they both had the last name Africa which was adopted by all of the cult’s members. It’s a miracle anybody made it out of the compound after hours of gunfighting and fires that engulfed 2 blocks.
You should not assume children are part of any group or movement. This wasn’t a good vs bad event, as reality seldom is. Shitty people on both ends resulted in a tragedy.
Uh okay pal, how about this reformatting:
If that’s all true, then that adult and child from the cult who lived are lucky they lived after their cult had the gall to shoot at firefighters.
Thanks pal, I agree with you once you reformatted yourself for clarity. Ty for finally being clear!
Aight, I’ll go edit the original to mirror this.
Boy of you think 13-year-olds can’t shoot you haven’t seen shit
Boy of you think 4-year-olds can’t shoot you haven’t seen shit
/s
Boy of you think babies can’t shoot, you’ve never changed a diaper.
*of
Nice catch, corrected
You believe that part?
I’m not going to sit here and give you a lecture on what the word “IF” means.
Yeah I responded before you changed it, so stfu.
Nah the word if was there from the start, so stfu.
The fuck it was
Actually, here is an easy way to tell, your comment in response was over 2 hours later than the last time an edit was made to my comment. So the if absolutely was always there, just hover over the little pencil icon.
I’m sure there is a way to verify it on Lemmy.
Holy shit, I’d never heard about this.
That’s hardly the only one that US public schooling completely avoids teaching about… Tulsa, OK, OK to TN before that, and Wyoming too… the despicably shameful list goes on
but only the third (?) time that US citizens were subject to aerial bombardment … so, um … there’s that?
I suggest looking up what the Pinkertons were about as well. The US had a nasty history when it comes to the poor and people of color who get “uppity”.
They still exist to this day, and do the same business. There more recent thing was being hired by Wizards of the Coast to intimidate someone who received MTG cards before official release date.
This was a big stink on the R site; there is no reason to maintain that company name except to capitalize on its horrifying reputation.
I know very well what the Pinkertons did back then — and are still doing as part of various union-buster merc groups hired by Amazon, Starbucks, etc. (the WotC thing is a blip that happened to ruffle geek feathers, so it bubbled up over there), but the simple fact that the general public doesn’t (want to?) connect the dots between alt-right, cop gangs, and mercs like the Pinkertons is only one reason that this nation will continue to be slavery based, no matter the cosmetic flourish every 4+ years. 🤌🏽
Pinkertons today is a brand name purchased by a Swedish security firm. It has nothing to do with the previous Pinkertons and (fellow) D&D nerds circlejerking that the guys from Red Dead Redemption had come to (literally ask to) retrieve stolen property without involving the law was very embarrassing.
If it had nothing to do with the name, they would have dropped the name. The reputation behind the name is the point. Plenty of people knew who the pinkertons were before Rockstar released grand theft cowboy.
Just so we’re clear, your argument is that this Swedish firm have the same name as 19th century American “mercs” therefore modern day slavery is real?
Real question: how many since?
We were taught about the Trail of Tears when I was a kid. Is it no longer taught? Wait, I got transferred to a private school in fifth grade. That might be where it came up.
I don’t think this event is in any way comparably to what happened in Tulsa.
I’m sorry, is the crux of your argument to devalue based on the quality of atrocity? 🤢
What the police did to the MOVE compound was wrong, but what the MOVE terrorists were doing wasn’t right either.
No one but you is even arguing that, and you’re dangerously close to some shit heel whataboutism. Mind your step.
How is this whataboutism? What happened to them is a direct (disproportionate) result of their actions. That’s not what whataboutism means.
Here is a hard concept for some people: Don’t: start a cult, collect illegal firearms, create a compound with the intention of drawn out conflict, start shielding people from lawful arrests over acts of terrorism, open fire on an actual legion of police officers and firefighters, continue shooting at them even after the roof is covered in flames and your fellow cultmembers are holding children above the water of the flooding basement. Maybe at some point attempt a surrender, maybe around the time they evacuated the entire area and rolled up with a fucking anti-tank machinegun?
You’d defend Waco too, no doubt. 🤷🏼♀️
Let the Fire Burn is a really good documentary on this event.
Let the Fire Burn
Added to my list of stuff to watch. Thanks!
And racist think this kind of life destroying event generation after generations doesn’t have a negative impact on a group of people. The fact that Black Americans have anything should be applauded. This is just one event, look up Oklahoma massacre, or our wide spread lynchings history. There are still to this day southern families that have body parts of black lynching victims because that’s just what their ancestors did back in the day. Hunt down black people that didn’t stay in line and mount a piece of their body over the mantel as a family heirloom.
TBF I think a cult compound in the middle of the city full of white people armed to the teeth who want to take down the government and keep missing their paroles wouldn’t end well, either. This event was not in itself racism destroying generations, rather the result of.
Excellent use of tautology
Tautological statements are true so assume you meant bad use of tautology
Well I am a beginner who has just started.
Okay but did you know that they were brown people? Checkmate liberals
I remember this craziness. Was insane and of course, it was all considered ok.
I remember this craziness.
I remember that craziness because as a young adult, I was working nearby and saw the smoke clouds.
…and of course, it was all considered ok.
I’m unaware of anyone at all those days who considered it ‘all okay.’ On the contrary, it put a kind of national spotlight on Philly police’ brutality going back to the Rizzo days, and doubtless contributed to Rizzo never being mayor again. And I think even amongst the folks who believed the bombing was justified, a large segment had to admit that it obviously went very, very wrong.
All that said-- yeah, as a nation I’m not sure we learned a damn thing out of all that. The police certainly didn’t appear to.
In the SE USA where I was about to graduate from high school, in the local news it was presented as “inner city terrorists handled with appropriated force”
I’m not surprised there was a deal of confusion about it. It was a complicated affair that doesn’t have much analogue in contemporary history AFAIK.
It wasn’t until I went to university in the fall of that same year in a large metropolitan city with a diverse collection of dazzling urbanites that I was exposed to other points of view.
a large segment had to admit that it obviously went very, very wrong.
I’m just imagining the conversation it took for such a chuckle fucker to knock off that racket. Like ok imagine it’s your baby in the building. walking a person through each scenario as a painful exercise.
Militarization of the police has been a wild fucking ride over the last 40 years.
Acorn drops and some pimple-faced teenager with a badge goes on a shooting rampage. Then we’re told he needs better training, so we spend another couple million dollars bringing in IDF officers to train local cops on effective use of Skunk spray
by “wild fucking ride” i assume you mean criminal matter, since that’s the only reasonable expectation for bullshit like this - that it’s illegal
fix your shit, america
How do you police the police?
I dunno… Coast Guard?
Technically, they bombed a home. But it was a row home and they were too stupid to think about what happens when you set fire to a home connected to a bunch of others
and then they refused to let firefighters in
The ones that were being shot at?
Sure. Like I said, just being technical
Ok that’s messed
You know, if you guys are just gonna label everyone who wants freedom terrorists, you’ve got a fucking problem there in the land of the ree
Don’t forget to call the opposing groups of said terrorists “freedom fighters” (1986 newspaper)
Imagine being firebombed because you’re a shit neighbor (this is what I understood after a glance on the wiki page about MOVE, the two times the police went after them, it began as complaints from neighbors)
There was an armed standoff with police,[8] who lobbed tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them in return, and a 90-minute gunfight ensued, in which one officer was bruised in the back by gunfire.[38] Police used more than ten thousand rounds of ammunition before Commissioner Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed
Fucking hell, 10k rounds? How?
Also Lemmy far-left people: It literally couldn’t get any worse than Biden not decriminalizing weed as fast as I wanted him to. I don’t see how letting Trump come to power would even make a difference.
Quite the strawman you built yourself there.
I actually do think it’s a fake viewpoint – I don’t think a lot of people on the left actually think this; I think that most of the “far left” people on Lemmy who are saying it are propaganda trolls trying to depress the vote on the left in the upcoming election. But I’ve definitely had people say exactly this to me.
Maybe I should have made it clear that I’m not attacking actual “far left” people with my statement, yes; that’s fair.
Because decriminalising weed takes 50 people working non stop for 4 years.
It actually does take a lot more than one person.
- Pardoning federal prisoners, Biden can do all on his own, and already did. (Didn’t do all that much because more people are in state prison for state charges. But, if you’re one of those people who’s now out of prison, it’s pretty significant I think.)
- Rescheduling marijuana takes agreement from the DEA, who aren’t exactly weed-radicals, and the value of doing it is a little limited in the first place. He requested to reschedule it years ago and they’ve been dragging their feet on it for whatever reason up until very very recently.
- A bill for decriminalization is where the real significant change can come. There were a couple of them that came along, of which probably the most serious effort was a bill for full legalization. It passed the house, but there was a little bit of Democratic opposition when it reached the senate, and of course all the Republicans voted against it, so it failed. So, quite literally, 50 people would have been needed in order to pass it, but we couldn’t get the 50 together, which is why it’s still federally illegal.
