- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemm.ee
- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemm.ee
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What infuriates me is this:
“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood until direct negotiations with Israel resolve key issues, including security, boundaries and the future of Jerusalem.”
Why does Israel get membership in the UN, if these are preconditions for membership? Israel will never agree to Palestinian membership. A stable Palestinian state will likely never exist until Israel is defeated militarily and has no choice but to accept it.
When statements don’t make sense, i find it helpful to cut out any part that offends logic and see if it becomes clearer. In this case i apply it like this:
“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood.
There! The other parts were extraenous fluff to soften their perceived position.
(I know you already grok their position, I’m just sayin its a hack i like.)
I do not see where the statement you quoted says Israel needs to agree for Palestine to become a UN member. It says that negotiations with Israel are necessary to resolve the key issues.
And that’s a very valid point.
That’s what “membership” means in the quote
yes, but it will be united states blocking it, not Israel
If I’m reading it right, the OP meant something like this:
The US block Palestinian membership on the condition of negotiations with Israel, but don’t impose the same restriction (negotiations eith Palestine) on Israel’s membership. Why does Israel get to be a member without negotiation, but Palestine doesn’t?
(Not taking a stance here, argue with the OP if you want to. I’m just contributing my understanding.)
Never is a strong word.
Until 1995, when Israeli PM Rabin was assassinated by a right winger, they were moving towards a two state solution, to the point of the IDF forcibly removing their own Jewish settlements from the lands of the prospective Palestinian state.
After the assassination, Netanyahu became the next PM, and has served in the position for most of the time since, asides most of a decade in the 2000s where other Likud politicians held it. He reversed the policy of settler removal.
Try not to conflate the entire country with the crazy right winger leadership they have currently. The same leadership of strongmen that catastrophically failed to keep them safe back in October, which is the one single thing such a man says he is supposed to be good at.
All that said, I also support Palestinian entry as a UN member state, and am tired of the US unfairly favoring its treaty ally in this case.
After 50 years and heavy Palestinian concessions a state is almost established with heavy external pressure
Extremists from Netanyahus party assasinate the israeli PM. Wife of Rabin blames Netanyahu foe his death
Israel votes Netanyahu into power along with an extreme right wing cabinet and openly gets far more Genocidal than in the past
No guys this totally doesn’t represent israel
This is israel. It is what is has always been. A Nazi Apartheid state.
It seems contradictory to me to say it has always been pursing genocide, when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Perhaps we could look at the voter tallys in 1996, where Netanyahu won 1,501,023 to 1,471,566, and the events that were influencing the Israeli public at the time? It certainly doesn’t help when there’s 14 suicide bombings happening in Israel between 1993 and 1995 during the peace process. Being bombed generally does drive people towards militarism.
Regardless of the past, though, Israel is there now. With its nuclear arsenal, it will not be destroyed any time soon unless Iran somehow nukes it off the map through its missile defense. So, negotiation seems necessary.
when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Yeah and what did it result in? Same thing as every other “negotiation” from the last 75 years, More Genocidal Nazis slowly taking over Palestinian land while the Palestinians have to wait for the “peaceful negotiations”.
The only difference between past israel and current israel is that current israel got so arrogant that they are forgetting to hide their Nazism. They are now flaunting what they have been doing for the past 75 years thinking themselves so much in the right that nobody will disagree with them.
Pretending that israel has ever had good-will to come to a peaceful conclusion is pure delusion. Israel is an Ethnostate deeply rooted in Apartheid. You cannot create an Ethnostate pecaefully just like the Nazis weren’t peacefully expanding their Lebensraum.
nuance won’t hurt you, I promise <3
Do we look at the Holocaust with nuance as well? Should the Jews have tried to negotiate with Adolf Hitler?
When someone decides to do Ethinc Cleansing to create an Ethnostate it’s Nazi-O-Clock. All nuance goes out the window.
I’m not sure about this ethnostate claim, when over 20% of Israel’s citizens are of Arabic descent, and are not required to have Jewish heritage or faith. They can vote, own business and have the same legal protections as non-Arab citizens. These are not in Gaza or the West Bank, but living in Israel’s internationally recognized borders.
And there it is. From “israel wasn’t always trying to steal land” turns into “well israel not really an Apartheid state”.
Three comments further and I’m going to read about how there are no innocents in Gaza.
No, there are certainly innocents in Gaza. However, there are also innocents in Israel. You may have chosen your side, but I am not fighting in this war. Frankly, it’s consistently been too difficult to determine the truth.
edit: Actually, that’s not true. I find I do get involved in the information side of the conflict, except I have to consistently fight against both of the sides. It’s very troubling.
Can’t wait to see the list of US/Israel bootlickers that abstained from/voted against this, trying to deny an entire people the right to their own land.
“The United States voted against the resolution, along with Israel, Argentina, Czechia, Hungary, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Papua New Guinea.”
What the fuck Palau
Palau is basically a U.S. vassal state.
Having voted in a referendum against joining the Federated States of Micronesia in 1978,[11][12] the islands gained full sovereignty in 1994 under a Compact of Free Association with the United States.
Politically, Palau is a presidential republic in free association with the United States, which provides defense, funding, and access to social services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau
Remember that when someone claims America isn’t an empire.
Ahh yes, the mighty empire of… checks notes the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau.
You say that as if that’s all America is. America controls a vast amount of land. It’s the third largest country in the world and, unlike the first two largest (Russia and Canada), most of that land is also usable for either farming or resource extraction. But that’s not the only reason it’s an empire. It’s also an empire because it has a large military presence in multiple countries who rely on it to supply defense at least in part. But another reason it’s an empire is that it has vassal states. It doesn’t matter how small those states are. Especially not when they are in strategic Pacific locations.
It also has a method of governance capable of granting lasting human rights, which is a quite popular export.
It also has a method of governance were politicians harp on and on (and on, AND ON) about having wonderful human rights whilst having the largest fraction of the population emprisioned in the World, regular murders by police, commonly deploying violence against demonstrators, having a voting system that enforces a power duopoly, regularly disenfranchise minorities and were citizens do not have rights to health, food or a place to live, which is not a popular export.
FIFY
capable of granting lasting human rights
capable being the key word here
Hamas’s human shield tactic paying off.
If Israel had responded proportionately to Oct 7, the world would have continued to ignore their cruel apartheid.
The tunnels were the means of attack.
Destroying the tunnels is the literal definition of a proportionate response.
Combined with reasonable attempts to warn civilians, it’s kosher.
Not when reasonable effort to warn civilians is: we’re going to bomb you, and if you run we’ll bomb you too.
Actually they send texts, call phones, and fire warning shots. The Qatari media you gorge yourself on has covered it zero times.
Are you saying they did not warn people before moving into Rafah?
That’s delusional.
That’s not what I am denying, read my comment again. What I am saying is that the warnings are just for show, because if they follow the warnings and flee, the IDF kills them while they are on the run
98% of Gaza says that’s not true.
You’re conflating a few isolated stories from the initial days of the war during the evacuation of northern Gaza when they said “go south toward general safety,” not “go south and your safety is guaranteed.”
At that time, 99.94% of the civilian population evacuated without harm.
At any rate “don’t stand above tunnels and stay the fuck away from any members of Hamas or die” would have been very clear to me.
Where’s your source for those statistics?
Palestinians’ tactic of “existing and deserving rights” is paying off, yeah.
Human shields are kind of useless against an army with no morals ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks. Do you know anything about the people you’re talking about or are you just ignoring it all because you’re sad about the consequences of their own actions? Nobody made Hamas build tunnels under every single school and hospital, nobody made Hamas turn their airport and water ports into instrumentalities of international terrorism. That’s what the people chose. Hamas is (was?) wildly popular.
If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Apart from the fact that they do have uniforms for soldiers (except for during that little hospital “operation” some months back), you see that Israel is guilty of all of this too, right?
Eg being held in “administrative detention” without charge is being held hostage, harming or threatening innocent civilians so they put pressure on their government is terrorism. Killing AI-identified “targets” while they’re at home with their families because it’s easier is targeting innocent people every day. And withholding the necessities of life from civilians on purpose is against international law. Nice uniforms though yeah.
Should we take away Israelis’ rights by your logic? Or should we not punish innocents for the actions of people who claim to speak for them?
Basic rights are not conditional. Not sure how I can explain that to you if you don’t understand that already. Jesus christ.
Prisoners of war don’t get an arraignment and bail. What are you even talking about.
I’m not talking about prisoners of war anywhere there.
Prisoners taken in a warzone under suspicion. Administrative detention. Call it however. No diplomatic status. Citizens of no legitimate state. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They don’t get to have a state. They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza, often rewarded, always revered. Hamas is indefensible and unredeemable for what they’ve done to millions of people of have lived and died in Gaza without any prospects, having turned every institution into modalities of Iranian-vassal terrorism. Give me a break.
Prisoners taken in a warzone under suspicion. Administrative detention. Call it however.
Here you go, something fun to learn: https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
Again, nothing to do with war, NOT prisoners of war. Hostages by another name. How did you not know about this?
They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in
GazaIsrael, often rewarded, always revered.Also true this way around. Israel has been committing war crimes for 7 months straight now.
This is the classic defense of Hamas by the way. Disregard all points of fact, talk about how evil Israel is.
Like you totally ignored all points of fact raised by me and didn’t even know that Israel detains Palestinians without charge all the time outside of active war?
I’ll tell you why I didn’t fight you on these points: the topic of conversation is Palestinian statehood. NOT Hamas. What you are doing is classic hasbara bullshit, if in doubt and people start talking about human rights for Palestinians, shift the conversation to Hamas. You think or at least imply that the actions of a few can detract from the need for basic rights for every single human being. As I said, if that was the case then Israelis lose them too.
And guess what? Hamas are terrorists and I agree they are shit. Now if you could face up to the various despicable crimes of Israel we might actually get somewhere here.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many. The side that actually punishes war crimes is redeemable. The side that rewards war crimes is not.
I understand that in Israel there is a political movement that fosters a culture of wiping things under the rug or maybe pardoning war criminals like Trump did and would do again in America. But every dead kid in Gaza rests squarely at the feet of Hamas. Seems like it’s about 3% of the population that is so hardcore for Hamas that they are ready to die for the cause with their loved ones in tow.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many.
Thank you. This is very bad and I’m sure you can see that not all have been punished, in fact I think the WCK attack is one of the only ones recently that have?
But Israel is still allowed at the UN. They should be in the UN despite all of the (IMO) horrendous things that the country is doing and has done. Since Hamas would not be the representatives of Palestine at the UN (so complaining about them is not relevant), why should Palestine not have full UN membership? Why do they not deserve a proper seat at the table?
It would be like saying Israel doesn’t deserve membership because settlers are terrorists and the IDF and the current government supports them. I don’t understand how you can apply the logic to Hamas and Palestine but not there?
If you answer nothing else, please answer this: do you think that the state of Palestine has the right to exist?
Ah yes the weekly reminder that Genocide Joe was faking his finger wagging for votes and his unconditional support for israel is still going.
It’s ok the loser tyrant trump will surely stop all genocide worldwide right? No way he would make it worse in your mind right?
At this point I’m morbidly interested in trumps response since Biden is the devil
