It’s not really a problem of lack of know-how, not even a problem of mass production (some industries made the transition for various reasons). It’s a problem of a monopoly with dirty lobbies & gov subsidies.
Ah crap. 😩
i am sure it will be “too expensive” for the next 30 to 40 years.
Much more likely that no company wants to use it no matter how much it costs because it degrades. We use plastic as a packing material specifically because it doesn’t degrade and lasts forever.
On the other hand, many of the things packaged in plastic also degrade, and might be fine for their safe shelf life in either biodegradable plastic or a container with that type of lining. Other liquids could be packaged in glass.
The issue isn’t material choice. It’s that plastic can’t be replaced by most materials because of the current function of our containers.
Let me pitch it like this: go to the grocery store. It’s all plastic. The meat? Plastic container. Milk is in plastic. Water in plastic. They’ll even put your potatoes in a pre-packaged plastic sack.
So the issue is that plastic has made its entire niche and therefore is irreplaceable in that niche. Whereas if we would swap over to reusable milk containers and dispensers or refillable chip bags, we’d be miles ahead even if those were all made of plastic still.
The problem isn’t containers, it’s the existence of disposable packing being the only option.
bingo. ive heard of many of these biodegradable plastics and the main problem is shelf life.
honestly we should go back to CANS in many things. its a solution that has been staring us at the face.
Bio degradable doesn’t mean that it will degrade on its own because some bacteria ate it. For example, PLA is bio degradable, but you need an industrial hot composter to turn it back into lactic acid. You can’t put it into a waste bin with your banana peel and expect it to degrade, that won’t happen.
The problem with many bio degradable plastics is that they also degrade either due to heat exposure (PLA will start softening at around 55°) or due to UV exposure (PLA will fall apart within months to a year when exposed to the sun) or both (like PLA). That means their use is limited. You don’t want your glasses to fall apart after a year of use, do you? But if you can use such plastics away from the sun, water, heat, etc, they can last forever.
Same people, they’ve been making biodegradable footwear for a bit now.
Oh, nice… techno-solution No. 456927493923990003038. You know… the same ole’ techno-solutions they’ve been promising us will solve all the capitalism-instigated problems (ie, problems that aren’t technological in nature) since at least the 80s?
I’ll just go ahead and file this with the rest.
since at least the 80s
People have been reliant on “ole’ techno-solutions” since the dawn of humanity 2 million years ago on the African savannah, long before capitalism was even a thing. Just sayin’.
I think in this case it’s a matter of definition what constitutes a “techno-solution”, specifically the “techno” part. Just saying.
People have been reliant on “ole’ techno-solutions” since the dawn of humanity
Soooo… according to you people have been relying on “techno-solutions” to fix the problems caused by capitalism long before capitalism was even invented.
Yeah… that makes total sense.
No one said its a magic wand, it’s one of many things that could potrntislly help reduce the damage we do to the ecosystem.
Yes capitalism bad but there’s eight billion people on the planet so a communist system would also need modern materials to allow everyone to live a good life.
No one said its a magic wand,
Of course they don’t say it’s a “magic wand…” even the media doesn’t think you’re that stupid.
it’s one of many things that could potrntislly help reduce the damage we do to the ecosystem.
So when do they start? As I’ve already implied - they’ve been enthusiastically peddling “techno-fixes” to these problems since at least the 80s (I know because I was there), and they haven’t made much of a dent, have they? Does it perhaps have something to do with the fact that the problems caused by capitalism isn’t technological, perhaps?
so a communist system would also need modern materials to allow
If the problems aren’t technological it means modern materials isn’t the problem, is it?
The problem is caused by eight billion people wanting to live full lives with meaning and purpose.
I guess your childhood was very different to mine, or more likely you’d currently living in a sealed community like the Amish but locked to cassette decks and big hair. For those of us living in reality things have changed massively since the 80s, even the US has more solar generation than coal generation, electric car usage is starting to dent oil demand, work from home and automation is starting to reduce commuting - but you wouldn’t know about these things because they’re only possible due to lots of advances that happened since you got frozen in the time bubble.
No its not perfect, life is hugely complex and global society even more so but less people die of dysentery every year, more industries move to sustainable models and ecologically safe practices all the time, and new options for people trying to create solutions reach the market everyday.
What do you think we should do? Shut off the oil snd let billions die as global society collapsed and chaos is unleashed as billions od desperate people destroy everything in a panic? Or more likely you don’t have a solution because you don’t care it’s just an empty argument to help you avoid reality.
If you install a communist system will people magically not want food and water and entertainment? Did Deng modernise Mao s vision because the revolutionaries were all secretly CIA agents or because it’s.not actually very easy to create a fully working centrally planned economy?
Just saying capitalism is the problem doesn’t help anyone if your only solution is wishing upon a star.
yet more inane blathering
I thought that only tankies resort to flooding a reply with bullshit whining to try and deflect from the point - yet here you are, liberal.
I guess you really aren’t that different.
I responded to your message, you have no answers so you resort to name calling
I responded to your message,
I didn’t message you, liberal. Entitle yourself to that kind of importance when you’re circle-jerking with your liberal friends, okay?
Yes and I responded to yours, why are you crying about it?
Life is better due to millions of technological developments, no one said that this or anybtech will solve all the problems associated with keeping 8 billion people alive and happy but it’s likely to have some important use cases which will combine with
Life is better
For whom? The kiddies who mined the cobalt in your phone?
solve all the problems associated with keeping 8 billion people alive and happy
Riiight… because that’s what capitalism is concerned with - keeping 8 billion people happy. Nothing to do with profits, eh?
Damn right, many techno-solutions already exist and have for a while but don’t get used, usually due to bribery by the purveyors of the problem.
No, usually because of the same reason most of these innovations don’t work. They don’t scale for one of 1000 reasons.
Not everything is a conspiracy.
There are already compostable alternatives to plastic bags being sold in stores like Target. I heard one of the issues is that people/companies refuse to pay more for them.
Some of those “compostable” bags actually decompose into microplastics, so unfortunately they’re not always better
Sounds like something laws should fix
Every tiny change they try gets met with huge backlash, people still rage about plastic straws. It’s got to be a cultural change too.
Exactly… We need heavy focus on packaging… plastic bags are barely a problem. I don’t care if my food packaging is flashy… I shouldn’t be in the hook if this stuff doesn’t decompose naturally. Meat is the most agriegious example why do we use heavy styrene?
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Nobody ever thinks about the oli barons /s
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This is exciting news. Repubs pretend climate change is a myth because the oil industry has them in pocket. The smarter take would be to cheer for all the economic incentives to build new markets that are sustainable.
We have a lot of options for materials that completely decompose. The challenge is materials that only decompose when you want them to, and not while theyre sitting on store shelves
That doesn’t sound like a problem but a feature. We love new shiny things and wasting things.
I think if we find materials that breakdown in a useful way, it creates an incentive to make use of those products that have a shelf life. But more importantly creating a waste product that is beneficial.
I didn’t know if the material science is there yet. But we need to figure out the best way to use these new materials to change industries.
If we can make something profitable, other people will do the hard part of adopting it and getting it out there.
My work produces sooo much waste. More than all of the staff combined will ever produce. And thats just my branch. We have hundreds of branches and being where we are in canada, we put some of the most amount of effort into recycling. Because its law, not because the company is willing to sacrifice profit by spending resources on anything that doesnt produce value in dollars.
We are small fry, and we arent in a monopoly
I think if we find materials that breakdown in a useful way, it creates an incentive to make use of those products that have a shelf life. But more importantly creating a waste product that is beneficial.
Cardboard. It composts well.
I go through more cardboard than garbage. It’s not useful for many packaging or shipping solutions
Right, generally whenever fluids or outdoor exposure is a concern. Because it decomposes.
The problem with cardboard isnt that it decomposes, but that its made of paper, which absorbs fluids. Its also not really possible to make air-proof packaging with cardboard.
In not sure what point you are making. But ill clarify that i was only trying to show that i did take the use of cardboard into consideration when i have the opinion i did.
That may not help or already be understood.
I dont know what happening
We have cardboard and paper for when you want packaging to eventually decompose. And plastic for when you dont want it to. Which is why no decomposable alternative for plastic has caught on, plastic is mainly used in those situations we dont want it decomposing. A lot of people have developed plant based, biodegradable plastics, its actually not that hard. Theyre just all prone to decomposing
Almost all of the plastic I use at work so ship orders, is used for less than a day. Tape, plastic bags, wrap, strapping.
We use so much of it to just contain things for extrememly short periods of time, its all disposable plastic that isnt needed for more than a day usually, often hours.
Nothing about does anyone think even once we dont want it to decompose too soon
We we are one industry, and just one branch of one player in it. And we are one of the few areas that has rules about recycling.
Industry can change if they want but they dont.
We could easily switch to paper tape and start there at least eliminating one entire product line from waste. But if we can just straight up swap oil-plastic tape for biodegradable-plastic tape it would be one example of something we can do right now that we won’t until we are forced to
All it would take is the product be available and the cost not more than what we are using. So subsidize the cost of using the product we want to lower its price and get people using it. When they do scaling and maturing of this new product will also bring the cost down which will reduce the need of subsidizing it, over time or sudden advances, and make the bad product less appealing because of cost.
But you have to make that transition as easy as simply ordering a different part number when ordering supplies.
Its never going to be industry that makes this happen unless it costs less. So it will likely need to come from government whether it be economic policy or legislative policy
I wonder why we shifted away from things like waxed paper milk cartons(like the small ones you’d get in school) and waxed butcher paper?
Is waxed paper/cardboard product really that much more expensive than plastic in terms of packaging?
Here in Germany, all milk is still distributed in cardboard packages
you mean cardboard packages with plastic linings ?
They are a fucking nightmare to recycle. You’ll be lucky if they get burnt and I mean that.
Yep. You can get it composted quickly enough, you can get the plastic film out of the composting bin, but the microplastics are already seeped in and contaminated the biomass.
Yeah, but the inner lining of tetrapacks is plastic
Because wax production has numerous negative impacts on the environment: higher energy costs (which lead to higher product costs), deforestation (in case of soy or palm based wax), impact on bee population (in case of bee wax), etc.
Plastics are just better materials for pretty much everything.
Is it price-competitive with the oil-plastic? What usecases?
I want to be optimistic, but…
However, cost is currently a prohibitive issue to widespread use, the researchers said. While petroleum is readily available to siphon from the ground, widespread infrastructure for algae farming will be needed for plastics made of the bio-based polymer to become used en masse, Burkart said.
However, the process the researchers devised can also be applied to other plant-based material, Burkart said.
The researchers hope their new process can eventually be implemented widely for food packaging, Pomeroy said.
“But if you’re going to ask me, ‘Could we do this with anything?’ I’m pretty sure we could do this with most anything,” he said.
Sounds like an economy of scales problem, and the scale isn’t there. Fixable, but not great.
Again?
I kid of course. The durable bioplastics from the 50s were made from plant cellulose.
They still are.
But they used to be too.
I have a lot to say when reading a headline like this, but it boils down to: I really hope advances like this and EV’s topple the fossil fuel industry that’s hurting our planet.
“if oil didn’t exist, we’d have to invent it”
I agree, although, the pessimist in me says the Oil companies will find a way to kill it somehow.
great wasnt the whole benefit of plastik that it doesent decompose tho?
That was the selling point before we got into mass production of disposable plastic everything.
Not really. The reason plastic exploded in use is because it’s cheap, durable, lightweight, and really versatile.
Look around you and consider what it would take to manufacture some plastic objects in another material.
Disposable things like packaging would be perfect to decompose after their lifetime is over.Depends on the use case.
Reading the article, it doesn’t seem like it just disintegraties after 7 months, this material has to be under compositing conditions with a specific microbe due 7 months.
There are applications where this would probably be an unacceptable possibility, but I’d imagine the vast majority of single use plastics would be fine with this. Packaging may spend months or even years doing it’s job, but it won’t be under compost conditions during that time.
