The German government has presented its new citizenship law this Wednesday (23.08.2023). The legislation proposed by Interior Minister Nancy Faeser will make dual citizenship easier as well as naturalization for non-EU citizens.<
The new citizenship plans boil down to these changes:
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Immigrants legally living in Germany will be allowed to apply for citizenship after five years, rather than the current eight; and if they have special achievements this can go down to only three years
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Children born in Germany of at least one parent who has been living legally in the country for five or more years will automatically get German citizenship;
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Immigrants above the age of 67 will be able to do an oral instead of a written German language test
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Multiple citizenships will be allowed
People living entirely on state support will not be eligible for German citizenship. German citizenship will be denied to people who have committed antisemitic, racist, xenophobic or other defamatory offenses that are seen to be “unreconcilable with commitment to the free democratic basic order.”
The new legislation will be debated in parliament and could come into effect in the fall.<
This is a good step, but from experiences of friends and family:
The real problem with the immigration process here is that the Ausländerbehörden (the municipal departments dealing with immigration) are so incredibly understaffed which makes the immigration process hell for anyone applying without hiring a (for many too expensive) lawyer.
My ex-gf qualified for citizenship but wanted this confirmed and it took months to get someone on the phone. She then had to send her ORIGINAL birth certificate in and they only confirmed that it had arrived 8 months after sending it (not an extreme case according to other friends) and if you call them to ask if it has arrived you get literally yelled at.
My cousin also married an American and he reported the same, as well as multiple other friends: for whatever you want, it is many months of waiting time between every single appointment. For getting citizenship this sucks for many reasons, but it is even worse for all the people who can and want to work here, but will need years to get a work visa, even if you clearly qualify.
I am 100% for making it easier to obtain citizenship, but passig laws like this without massively expanding processing capacity will only make the reality of obtaining citizenship even worse.
I don’t think the offices are understaffed, I think it’s the endlessly complex processes that block progress. If it wasn’t for all the (literal) paperwork and if they were more digital they could do more with half the staff probably.
This is everything I’ve heard about the Ausländerbehörden via iwantout subreddit too. That and not speaking anything but German. I think that’s fine for normal societal interaction but if you want to encourage immigrants to come you probably need to meet them halfway. Otherwise they’ll just go somewhere else easier.
I speak A2 but I would be very leery of trying to immigrate and navigate it all if I didn’t have friends who could advise and assist me.
The usual suspects are against it:
The opposition center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU), which has consistently blocked any reforms in the past, is opposed to the changes. “German citizenship is something very precious, and one should treat it very carefully,” CDU leader Friedrich Merz told public broadcaster ARD when the first draft was published in December 2022.
The far-right anti-immigration Alternative for Germany party (AfD) is strictly opposed to the planned changes. "At a time, when two-thirds of Germans do not want naturalization to be simplified. A “sell-out (Verramschung) of the citizenship” is just intended to cover up a lack of integration and to “fudge” statistics, said AfD lawmaker Gottfried Curio during a debate on immigration in the federal parliament, the Bundestag, in May 2023.
Lol, of course they are. I’ll be glad watching these morons suffer in the nursing home once they’re old. There won’t be enough people around to wipe their asses or shower them.
And I’m including all the old, politically illiterate people who are dumb enough to cast their vote for these parties every single time, notwithstanding the fact that these parties are always betraying their very own interests.
There won’t be enough nurses anyway, because it is highly unlikely that Germany can attract enough workers in this and other fields, when it has to compete for them with basically the whole western world.
Totally right. And I’ll leave this shithole country as soon as I have the means to do it. One of the most backwards nations in Europe in some crucial aspects. Always has been, sadly.
I would expect AfD to be more interested in revoking citizenship than granting it.
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whats the benefit of keeping the SA one?
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thats wild, I would have assumed she would have a better live in germany than SA, even if you divorce. Seems like family is the big motivator here.
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I guess every reason is good enough, I was just wondering and curious. thanks for answering
This seems like an incredible step forward for democracy in Germany. We could use this kind of thinking over in the UK.
With the exception of oral instead of written exams and the three year reduction for citizenship, I think the rest is already in place in the UK. Germany has traditionally had more stringent requirements especially when it comes to dual citizenship (which was only allowed for other EU countries).
Interesting, I was unaware!
Any further reading you know of regarding what we use to deny citizenship in contrast to this new German law, as I’m unable to find something similar that the UK does?
Specifically this part.
German citizenship will be denied to people who have committed antisemitic, racist, xenophobic or other defamatory offenses that are seen to be “unreconcilable with commitment to the free democratic basic order.
No worries if not.
Multiple citizenships shouldn’t be allowed.
Why not?
Cause either be something or not.
That’s a really dumb reason. People can be 2 different things at once. My mom is Canadian born but my grandfather was in the US airforce. Bam instant dual citizenship.
Thats your problem and you obviously have no grasp on the complexity of Europe.
Are you sure you’re not the one lacking understanding of the complexity of Europe? The closeness and complexity is one of the prime reasons why multiple citizenships can be needed.
No.
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That tracks - didn’t think you were but it’s always simpler to have clear lines of communication.
So just a gut reaction? Cool.
There are plenty of good reasons to have dual nationality.
There are.
However, I am looking to the Turkish election and how many people with Turkish citienship living in European countries voted, because they benefit uniquely from the Erdogan result. They can earn regularly in Germany and then have much more spending power in Turkey while also not needing to live in the bad conditions that brings with it. So, they’re not really caring for how local projects do, because they don’t matter to them.
This is not a shot against Turkey, it’s a shot against people being able to influence a country they’re not living in and them not being subjected to negative consequences locally.
This is something that’s weighing on my mind. I am technically an immigrant as well (I was born in Germany, but not with German citizenship) and I keep thinking if it would even make sense for me to be able to influence a country I haven’t visited in 25 years.
That has nothing to do with citizenship though, that is Turkey not having a residence requirement to vote on top of requiring citizenship.
There are plenty of countries where you need both residence and citizenship to vote. The reason to Turkey to do it the way they do is the party in power is not incentivized to change it.
Okay, fair. I take this.
Since it doesn’t happen often, respect for choosing to share that you accepted a counterargument.
What countries need residency on top of citizenship to vote?
Ireland reserves the right to vote to citizens living in Ireland.
And Germany reserves the right to vote for expatriate citizens ‘only’ for 25 years after leaving the country, after which they are no longer eligible to vote.
https://www.bundestag.de/parlament/bundestagswahl/auslandsdeutsche-213246
I’m a uk citizen who isn’t allowed to vote there because I never lived there
There are plenty of reason why it should be absolutely forbidden.
OK and what are they? Having dual nationality makes it easier to travel. For example there are countries where travel or visiting for more than a short period is very difficult for non citizens, if you emigrate from said countries but you need to return for an extended period (such as family illness) you need to keep citizenship to be able to do so legally.
Thats all your problem territory…
Not really a problem for me, I try to be empathetic towards other people though!
Yes and I am certainly not my passport therefore it’s a stupid argument
Can you give a reason that goes further than that of a 5 Year old?
At least the current implementation of dual citizenship seems to only come with advantages, but not any drawbacks for the person holding the dual citizenship. And it that’s the case one must ask why Germany (or any country for that matter) is seemingly incentivizing people to acquire a dual citizenship.
Also from what I understand dual citizenship essentially only comes with disadvantages to the country or countries permitting their citizens from holding dual citizenship. If that’s the case, why should a country allow its citizens to hold dual citizenship?
I’d be really curious to hear why a country should allow dual citizenship outside of possible attracting a small number of people who would not attempt to acquire that country’s citizenship if it meant they’d have to renounce their previous citizenship.
Many dual citizens pay double taxes in some way or another.
Also, some countries are vindictive towards those who renounce their citizenship and make it very hard for such persons to enter, which is a pretty big deal for anyone leaving friends and family behind.
Other countries don’t allow for revoking citizenship whatsoever.
One reason to allow dual citizenship is to encourage immigration, especially of in-demand professionals who would otherwise be quite deterred by a one way ticket.
This is just the 5 year old argument with more words.
What’s the reason dual citicenship is bad?
Its’s bad because they have one more citizenship? Why is it bad?
Im not OP, but I read one reason the ither day that made sense to me.
Those with double nationality will never fully commit to Germany, because if they fuck up, they can always go back to their og countries.
In case contrary, if they had only german citizenship, then its commit or commit. I mean they can probably alwys go back to their og countries, but at least it would be not so easy without double citizenship.
What do you mean with “fuck up”?. Also, having only their original citizenship didn’t prevent them from leaving their original countries, why would having two have any effect on mobility? I think people are more likely to stay if they can participate in society (voting) than if they are feeling constantly as foreign.
I think people are more likely to stay if they can participate in society (voting) than if they are feeling constantly as foreign.
This has nothing to do with my reply.
I don’t agree with the thinking behind this, but note this cuts both ways - international agreements have many provisions to prevent statelessness.
So the state can now strip a dual citizen of their German citizenship, whereas before once someone chose German citizenship both the state and person are stuck with each other.
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Nice argument!
Why?
Either be something or not.
No one “is” their citizenship or we would not have Reichsbürger that all have only one citizenship and shit on it.
Also only naming Turkish people when it comes to dual citizenship but not having anything against, let’s say Americans with both says more about you than dual citizenship says about people who want it/already have it.
And after Germany denying to be an immigration country for 80 years it is time that we as a country make clear “yes we want you as a citizen”. That many people haven’t committed to Germany, especially ones with Turkish roots stems a lot from us not having wanted them here for a very long time and expecting their parents or grand parents to go back. That’s why solely German speaking countries have the word “Gastarbeiter” (guest worker), there is no such word in other countries.
That in Europe “immigrant” is such a bad word that some have invented the word “expat”, so they can live in a different country than they were born in and have citizenship in, but can distinguish themselves from pesky immigrants.
I am very sure you have never talked to someone with dual citizenship, right? You just make up who they are and what they want and why they want dual citizenship in your mind. This is not the threat you think it is.
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