- cross-posted to:
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- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
A video explaining modern monetary theory and how with a little Marxism it can benefit everyone.
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As the amount of currency approaches infinity, the value of the currency approaches zero
So, what hadn’t clicked until I watch this video, is that federal taxes don’t ‘pay for things’, they are just the mechanism by which federal government ensures the currency has value: They compel us to pay taxes (via courts, police, etc.) and those taxes must be paid in the same currency, and so we have to do work to acquire that currency, and so it has value.
Well, and also by removing currency from general use, raising value by decreasing availability.
No, this is not how currency gets or keeps its value. The work itself is what creates value, which is paid back in currency. If you pay taxes, you transfer some of that value you created to the state. The money would not become worthless if the state did not collect taxes. Money is a way to transfer value, not to create it and taxes are like any payment just that, a transfer of value.
Value is generated by work, but valorization is based on processes of use or exchange. Generally assets have intrinsic value. Fiat currency has no intrinsic value. Its value derives from the state assuring a demand for goods and labor, which will be purchased in the currency, from assuring the availability of investment assets, which will promise a return above an original value, and from regulating the supply, to assure that the values of ordinary goods will remain generally stable.
Money existed before the government started using it.
The idea that taxes remove money form the economy and government spending prints new money is an abstraction created for macroeconomics to simplify its models. But it’s a lossy abstraction, so don’t go thinking this is exactly what happens on the real world.
Centralized, minted currencies definitely did not exist before states started using them. Minted currencies were invented multiple times independently across multiple cultures, but one of the biggest through lines between them is that they required a centralized state who held large reserves, and that they were, in every known case, used to support standing armies for those states.
Fiat money maintains its value largely because the government will purchase labor, goods, and other assets without any concern for gain versus loss.
The state therefore generates demand even when and where private entities will not or cannot hire workers, make purchases, or invest.
Not really. The US dollar is taking longer hit rock bottom because other countries are forced to payback their debts in dollars. Eventually all FIAT currencies go to zero.
Which is bad if you have a lot of money, but not so bad if you have a lot of debt and can still sell your labor and its produce.
But also bad if you have pay for things like food and shelter. Then you are just bartering which is less efficient than having actual currency. You can’t buy or sell someone half a haircut.
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If wages rise with inflation, then workers gain relative to those with accumulated fortunes.
That’s not how infinity works. It’s not a number you can ever reach. It’s not a number at all really. It’s more a set of all numbers.
The value of the currency will never approach zero.
It’s called a limit and it is very much coneptualized in math.
A limit isn’t infinity though. Infinity has no limit. Its the oposite of a limit.
However high you may count, there is still infinitely more you could count. And an infinite number of fractions between each and every number you counted. And all of that is included in infinity.
That’s the technical language used to refer to a limit. Take it up with a calculus book
Well, the books just going off of Sr Thomas Calcula, so really you should blame him.
In mathematical terms it’s perfectly acceptable to talk about the limit of an expression as some value tends towards infinity. E.g.:
limit (1/x) = 0 x→∞https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics)#Infinity_as_a_limit
Okay. My last try.
That’s a way of saying there is no specific value that is the end. The “Limit” is endless.
If we created a currency with 10^100 units. There would me more units than the atoms in a billion universes. And it would still be infinitely far from infinity.
So if the currency’s unit value is inversely proportional its proximity to infinity, the value of every unit of currency we could ever make is infinite. Even if we made 10^100 of them.
The term limit is used in mathematics differently from how you are understanding it from vernacular usage. A mathematical limit expresses directionality toward an unreachable value.
The meaning of the statement is that every marginal augmentation of the money supply carries some marginal diminution of the currency value, without any possibility that the supply may be exhausted absolutely or the value annihilated.
Try again, you still don’t understand the concept.
Interesting take on inflation: One of the big issues is who gets the printed money. Not us. It’s the rich and banks, who buyout all of our resources to hurt us.
Example: 2008 recession, government made blackrock, who then ate up the housing market so that no one owns their home yet they WILL be happy.
It could be given either to workers or to oligarchs.
The postwar model was Keynsian, or demand side, meaning the state supported prosperity of workers.
Supply side has only helped oligarchs.
Daily reminder that Second Thought (zero Thought) is a genocide defending tankie who ideologically supports ruzzia. https://youtu.be/4qIDOx-Pnzo?si=Bwf2tvCRKgM68FKL
Wow this is horrible. I only recently started watching his content and liking it. But this is surprising, also why is this on some other channel?
To hide it. He is also on a podcast with Yugopnik and Hakim, both of which are tankies.
I think it is fine that the channels are separate.
I am happy to receive the general leftist education on ST without bothering with any ML.
Dude is giving iffy vibes for a while now. Watch a few videos of his and a clear pattern emerges:
- Every negative aspect of the modern world is reframed as an intentional conspiracy of capitalism.
- A fantastical version is sold for the socialism of Nordic countries, and all ground realities and challenges are conveniently ignored.
- Uncomfortable leeway is given to past communism crimes, because the evil capitalist sabotaged them.
- A vision of the world is sold where away from capitalism, somehow all inherent human evils will vanish, and we all will act like Captain Picard for some reason.
It’s a perfectly fine channel to counter PragerU garbage, but don’t take anything he says without a sack full of salt.
I disagree with your characterizations, especially about Nordic states. There was an entire episode criticizing the shortcomings of the Nordic model.
Most of the criticisms of capital are simply explanations of books that have gained attention and acclaim, and none conflates systemic criticism with conspiratorial intention.
Not really. Even in the video you yourself links he’s calling an end to the conflict between Ukraine and Russia and an end to US involvement.
Wow. You are either incredibly dumb or incredibly disingenuous, just as zero thought funnily enough.
Calling it “end to the conflict” is such a slimy way to say what he actually wants. He wants ukraine to give up. He wants ruzzia to get away with everything they have done and to ignore all the atrocities they have committed.
It’s like saying that allies should have given up after Nazi germany and ussr conquered Poland. “Oh, end the conflict, so many people have died!!!” Sure, lets just let nazis happily do their genocide while we look the other way. Same as ruzzians committing active genocide in ukraine.
US involvement is the thing that actively saves innocent lives in this conflict. Shooting down missiles, giving ukranian soldiers more protection, and more ways to remove invaders from their lands.
And what do you think putting and “end” to the conflict would achieve? Ruzzia would resupply and attack in 5 years again.
If you have watched the video and not noticed the insane amount of lies, something is genuinely wrong with you. It is pure unfiltered ruzzian and Chinese propaganda. Nothing else.
JT, the creator of ST, certainly has expressed various views that many find problematic, respecting Marxism-Leninism and related historic events.
Nevertheless, the ST channel itself is curated to explain values and objectives that are largely noncontroversial in leftist circles, anti-capitalist and socialist. I feel JT deserves some acknowledgment for successfully explaining such ideas while separating some of his own more controversial leanings.
The broad observation is that the political world is not divided between those who criticize NATO and also laud Putin, versus those with sympathies exactly the inverse. It is possible to criticize the practices and alignments of one’s own nation, without having distorted views about another.
Views about the Russian invasion of Ukraine are too nuanced and complex that anyone’s may be reduced meaningfully to a few lines of text. It is helpful to avoid attempting clean demarcations between right versus wrong.
Views about the Ruzzian invasion are not nuanced and complex. You either support a democratic nation that is under attack from a dictatorial fascist regime or you dont.
No, I wouldn’t expect you to recognize nuance or complexity on any subject.
Everyone who holds a different view from you, who emphasizes different objectives, concerns, or values, is by your description slimy and stupid.
No one can make you engage nuance. All I can do is reiterate that the subject is broader than what may be captured in your curt generalizations.
Oh, let me bow upon you my centrist deity!!
Do give me the nuance then. Where is the fucking nuance in this brutal attack?
I am not seeking a debate on the subject.
I am only calling for advancing beyond simplistic generalizations.
At the moment, your response to anyone who challenges your very strong views is to hurl insults. Plainly, any conditions under which a debate might be productive would require a revision of your attitude.
Advanced "both side"ing going on here. What does it even mean to call an end to conflict? Russia is welcome to go back home and lick its wound, why is the onus on Ukraine to end conflict?
And end US involvement? So Russia can overrun an independent country?
Never support Second Thought. If you wanna learn about monetary theory and marxism go watch Unlearning Economics.
Why “never support”?
He’s a crypto tankie like he genuinely supports bonkers evil regimes and has anti-democratic beliefs but hides it in his main channel videos.
Dare I ask where he is hiding this, and what bonkers evil regimes you are referring to?
It is being claimed that JT, the creator of ST, supports Putin, due to JT’s view that the US and other NATO-aligned states militarily supporting Ukraine broadly serves to exacerbate the same trajectory of geopolitical tension that has helped enable Putin’s aggression.
JT has called for NATO weakening ties with Ukraine, and reversing its course of expansion, as part of a process for seeking stronger diplomacy between the West and Russia.
I believe he regards such a strategy as best supporting the long term interests of mitigating the incidence of armed conflict and gaining power for the working class internationally.
He has also criticized Ukrainian elites as prioritizing their own class interests aligned with foreign oligarchs, above the broader interests of the working class in Ukraine and elsewhere.
Much of JT’s rhetoric and many of his connections are ML, which has not helped him reach common ground with many outside such circles.
He advertises his other channels within his segments on ST.
If he is trying to keep them hidden, then his strategy is extremely ill conceived.
This other video at 29:43 also blew my mind, I just never thought about tax in that way, and it’s embarrassing.
Summary for the video-impaired?
Basic mmt with a socialist touch.
Debt just means that the government decides to make something happen. It is neither inherently good or bad. It depends on the context. The biggest opponents are capitalist who want to stop good things from happening as this will reduce their profit. E. G. : more public housing would destroy the business case of landlords.
Amazing summary, and I’m glad you mentioned landlords. I am having such a struggle lately when people tell me about their ‘side hustle’ as a landlord, and how they make so much passive income. I just wanna scream “so you feel good about making money doing basically nothing while there are so many people unsheltered, and living paycheck to paycheck?”.
It’s hard to have true empathy for something you have no real concept of.
Capitalists absolutely love government debt, because it provides a vehicle for safe investment.
They bellyache about debt to bolster the austerity narrative that they use against public spending supporting working class interests.
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Because they can print as much money as they want, devaluing yours in the process. Just like they did for the bank bailouts. A trillion dollar wealth transfer from the 99% to the 1%. Bitcoin was designed to solve this, the first block even contains a reference to it. BTC is neutral, international currency that knows no borders and which has a fixed supply and clear, unambiguous monetary policy. Nobody can ever turn on the money printer. It has been faithfully relaying transactions for people for 15 years without a single hack or day of downtime.
It makes functional currency available to anybody with a phone and an internet connection, which matters a lot in the global south and to the “unbanked” and “underbanked”. There are billions of people who have cell phones but no stable banking or monetary system or who regularly experience hyperinflation, Bitcoin solves this problem for them. Transactions settle in seconds to minutes which is much much faster than most in-country bank transfers let alone international. Fees can be as low as a penny with Bitcoin’s lightning network which can scale basically infinitely.
It does all of this with about .1% of global energy usage, most of which comes from renewables since Bitcoin miners inherently seek out the cheapest electricity available which tends to come from over-provisioned renewables during times of low electric demand. This is massively less electrical usage than even remittance services alone (western union etc) use, let alone the entire banking system and the carbon impact of moving around physical money from place to place.
Because they can print as much money as they want, devaluing yours in the process
The observation that is politically relevant is that availability of money is not a constraint for the capacity of the state to ensure adequate provisions for everyone, as long as such provisions continue to be available through production.
Cryptocurrency is based on a fantasy of apolitical money. Bitcoin is not currency because designation of an asset as currency is political. The moment everyone realizes that Bitcoin has neither intrinsic value, like gold, nor state backing, like the dollar, the value crashes.
