- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmit.online
Translation:
Essen’s mayor Thomas Kufen (CDU) reacts with horror to a demonstration in his city on Friday evening. 3,000 people, including many Islamists, marched through the Ruhr metropolis.
Essen’s mayor Thomas Kufen (CDU) reacted with outrage and incomprehension to an anti-Israel demonstration that marched through the Ruhr metropolis on Friday evening. Several of the approximately 3,000 participants chanted slogans and held up posters calling for a “Khilafah” (caliphate) in Germany. The three-hour procession on the edge of the city center was accompanied by 450 police officers and observed by state security.
According to the Essen police, the demonstration was registered by a private individual. However, the main organizer was apparently the “Generation Islam” group, which security experts consider to be part of the pan-Islamist movement “Hizb ut-Tahrir” (HuT) . HuT has been banned in Germany since 2003. The main speaker at the final rally in Essen was the activist Ahmad Tamim, the head of “Generation Islam.” The Islamic scholar Ahmad Omeirate told WAZ that Tamim was “using the Middle East conflict for mobilization and radicalization.”
Mayor Kufen regretted on Saturday morning that “Islamists, anti-democrats and Jew-haters” were allowed to parade through Essen protected by the freedom of assembly guaranteed by the Basic Law: “That is difficult to bear.” The CDU politician, who was the North Rhine-Westphalia state government’s integration officer from 2005 to 2010, called for consequences: “The Office for the Protection of the Constitution must take a closer look at Hizb ut-Tahrir’s splinter and successor groups. Bans must be an option.”
The demonstrators shouted slogans in Arabic and German on Friday evening. Posters condemned the Israeli military operation in Gaza (“Stop the genocide”) after the terrorist attack by the Palestinian Hamas, and one sign read: “German raison d’état calls for the killing of children.” The organizers initially used loudspeakers to remind people of the police requirement that no participant should question Israel’s right to exist. The tip-off was met with loud boos from the crowd.
At the beginning of the march, participants were also asked over loudspeakers to separate men and women. So it happened that most of the female demonstrators marched through the city behind the male participants. They repeatedly shouted “Allahu akbar” (“God is great”) and held up signs calling for the unity of all Muslim believers and the establishment of a caliphate in Germany. Individual demonstrators stuck their right index fingers in the air; This gesture is intended to symbolize belief in the “one God”, but is also seen as a symbol of the terrorist organization “Islamic State”. The design of several black and white banners and flags also resembled depictions of IS.
The Essen police announced on Saturday that they would subsequently analyze the Friday demonstration and examine its “criminal relevance”. It turned out that the motive for a pro-Palestine meeting was only a pretext. Instead, the organizers held a religious event.
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The more I see who is “protesting” for Palestine the more I understand why Israel and Egypt are doing what they are doing.
There’s plenty of survey data. It’s a sad reality that a large part, likely the majority of the adult population, in Gaza is staunchly fascist. And I don’t mean post-fascist or right-wing-populist like Trump and Le Pen are, I mean fascist in the sense that Hitler and Mussolini were.
Some numbers:
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And of course there’s the fact that 2013 at least 59% of Palestinians were in favor of executing apostates (i.e. murdering people who cease to be Muslim).
I would get less worrisome poll results if I went to a KKK rally.
Given how popular violence against fascists is in the feddiverse, I’m really vexed about the side that is taken here. Usually I have to remind people that just killing fascists on sight isn’t a good solution to the problem of fascism, but suddenly people here sound like Trump did on the Charlottesville rally.
Seeing people openly supporting Islamic jihadism like we’re seeing, not even one generation removed from 9/11 is so crazy to me.
Social Media is a damned virus. It’s fucking up far too many people for society to not fall apart at the seams. From supporting someone like Trump, to not believing in the science around COVID, to now supporting Hamas… like wtf is happening in the world.
Not a fan of social media either, but in large parts it’s merely showing what was already there.
The interesting thing is that in many Muslim majority countries currently experience a historic decline in religiosity. Young people In Iraq, Iran and Northern Africa tend to be worlds less religious than their parents generation. Outside Palestine more and more people seem to get that religious fanatics bring nothing but trouble. Unless the conflicts in the middle east escalate we stand a good chance that Islamism will be a fringe ideology there in the second half of the century. Hence I’m still cautiously optimistic that things will sort itself out.
The protests for Palestine in London have been a cross section of the left and centre left. Muslims, Jews, Christians Socialists, liberals. White and black. Young and old. But our politicians and media paint them as pro Hamas hate marches.
Throwing everyone in one bucket is a terrible idea.
I also hate the apartheid shit going in and around Israel as well es the war crimes commited by their government and military. At the same time I hate antisemitism equally as much.
The people who marched on this “protest” are just awful, hateful and terribly dumb people who deserve no support and all the criticism. But not everyone protesting because of the current situation with Israel is therefore automatically doing it for awful reasons.
Throwing everyone in one bucket is a terrible idea.
I also don’t see how it helps analyse and prevent the causes of these antisemitic feelings in any of the groups. Though it often feels like nobody is even really trying to seriously prevent it anyway, especially not the people complaining the loudest about antisemitism.
The people who marched on this “protest” are just awful, hateful and terribly dumb people who deserve no support and all the criticism. But not everyone protesting because of the current situation with Israel is therefore automatically doing it for awful reasons.
So you’d put them all together? Say in a bucket?
The people in this particular rally demonstrated for the erection of a caliphate in Germany. So yeah, let’s just put them in a bucket “hateful, awful, dumb, don’t support”.
A bucket it is then!
The point is that this rally isn’t the only one. And putting everyone from all rallies in the same bucket isn’t fine.
If you read the article you would see that it is merely used as a pretext. As Germany initially banned all demonstrations in support for Palestinians it is no suprise that extremist groups could undermine the cause, as moderates werent willing to get beaten up by cops.
This is an expected effect that was deliberately caused by the German government. They full well knew before that banning moderate demonstrations will lead to radicals taking over. And it seems to be part of a strategy to rile up hate for muslims in general in conjunction with plans to step up deportations and limit access to refugee granted under human rights.
Now that’s a fun conspiracy theory to completely ignore the kind of people who protest against Israel.
And no one gets “beaten up” by the police at these protests. In fact the police had to establish protected zones for journalists to shield them from the “peace” protestors.
Now that’s a fun conspiracy theory to completely ignore the kind of people who protest against Israel.
Like leftist Jews for example? There definitely a lot lf awful people protesting for Palestine at the moment. But to imply that it’s only one group or another and generally isn’t a super diverse group isn’t helpful either. The US just had the biggest anti-war protest since the Bush era.
Now that’s a fun conspiracy theory to completely ignore the kind of people who protest against Israel.
So you are claiming that repression of protests does not lead to radicalization? So all of the effects observed at G20 in Hamburg, the Arab spring, the civil rights movement in the US, all that didn’t happen to you?
And no one gets “beaten up” by the police at these protests.
Except yes they were and there is plenty of videos online. Fun fact on the side. The Berlin police in Germany is currently facing criticism for violently attacking a peaceful climate protest too, where a protestor was smacked on the pavement and dragged away while being unconscious.
So you are claiming that repression of protests does not lead to radicalization? So all of the effects observed at G20 in Hamburg, the Arab spring, the civil rights movement in the US, all that didn’t happen to you?
A complete nonsense connection you are trying to make here. German gov supposedly prohibiting pro terrorist demonstrations so only those would attend them? While at the same time having to create protected zones where journalists can report on the protests without getting attacked by the “peaceful” activists demanding a caliphate?
We have eyes, you know? And everyone sees what is going on.
This is disinformation, Germany did not ban all pro Palestinian protests.
The tone in mainstream media and from leading politicians at the very least strongly discourages any pro-Palestine demonstrations. But you’re right insofar as explicit bans only came down on two organisations, one of them being “Hamas” itself (which I think doesn’t really exist in Germany anyway).
Well said, I’d add more but not sure what the point is. There are so many agendas at play here, that arguing with them all is pointless.
Whats Egypt doing? Is it also a genocide?
There is no genocide. Egypt closed their border with Gaza and tells the people to fuck off because they are convinced they are terrorists. And Palestines “friends” only give Israel shit because they know Egypt is right.
So you disagree with the people from the UN that called it a “textbook case of genocide”?
Isn’t Egypt the only border accepting evacuees? I missed it, is Israel evacuating the injured Palestinian civilians somewhere internally now? Who are Palestine’s “friends”, are they helping the humanitarian situation in some way?One dumbass calling it that does not mean “the UN” but nice try.
What about these UN guys? Them Too?
“We remain convinced that the Palestinian people are at grave risk of genocide,” the group of experts, made up of seven U.N. special rapporteurs, said in a statement.
Nice try? Huh?
Also not “the UN”. It is not a genocide no matter how many supposed authorities you wish to pull out of your hat who share the same opinion as you.
Seven people that work for the UN is not the UN? Who is an acceptable source from the UN then? Do you have anyone specific in mind? Is genocide a matter of opinion to you?
What the fuck?
When you start siding with and “understanding” what military dictatorships like Egypt are doing the you really should take a pause and listen to yourself.
Are there any red lines that you are not willing to cross? Is the dislike for brown people so strong that basics tenants are sacrificed.
Good lord
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I don’t believe these 3000 individuals faithfully represent the 5+ milion Muslims who live in Germany nor the almost 2 bilion Muslims in the world.
What I do belive they represent is violent religious extremism. And that is not limited to Muslims. You got Buddhists shooting people in Myanmar, Jews shooting people in the west bank, Hindu stoning people in India and even 1st world American Christians shooting on plant parenthood clinics…
We should be vigillant whenever a religions doctrine gets into conflict with what we understand are basic human rights. I am not confident we are. I am not comparing PIS to idk Hamas - but how many women have died in Poland due to their anti-abortion laws and how is that acceptable?
I am not comparing PIS to idk Hamas - but how many women have died in Poland due to their anti-abortion laws and how is that acceptable?
What is the point if saying that you don’t compare and than compare anyway?
Sure there is also conservative Christianity that takes influence on society. The difference is it went trough reformation and there are more liberal (mainstream) versions of it. While one of the few (the only one I know about) liberal mosque in Germany is closing down due to threats.
What is the point if saying that you don’t compare and than compare anyway?
Sorry. By that I meant that even here, in our “safe Europe” our religious belives sometimes reach beyond what I believe should be allowed in a healthy society. Only the scale/method is wildly different - such that it “does not stand comparison”.
If the scale is so wildly different, what is the point of bringing it up?
They just explained it to you if you cared to listen.
I asked a different question, it’s called conversation - you should try it one day.
Modern American Christian politicians beg to differ. They very much would like to see the bible placed next to the constitution.
I agree we shouldn’t let them of course.
Sure there is also conservative Christianity that takes influence on society. The difference is it went trough reformation and there are more liberal (mainstream) versions of it.
Reading is a useful skill.
As is trying to understand the other’s point. How is banning abortion for everyone on religious grounds reformed? The new speaker of the house said there can be no legitimate government that’s not based on the bible.
You know what reformation was?
Not sure why you are down-voted but Islam is as any other religion rather political and therefore influences society. Modern Islam is rather conservative and anti-democratic in its’ core - so a big proportion of Muslim population is problematic if one wants to live in a modern, humanist and democratic society.
One solution is to create a more modern, European version of Islam - which is rather possible since Islam is rather decentralized.
You haven’t been to the USA or to any European country before the 80s to see that Christianity can be just as political and just as conservative.
So how many liberal, democratic, majority Muslim countries are out there? And yes conservative Christianity is also pushing for a less liberal society - the difference is, Christianity went through reformation creating more liberal versions -peacefully coexisting together (for most part), the only liberal mosque in Germany got closed due to threats.
Yep just look at for example Indonesia where foreign Islamic influence from the Middle East has slowly gained a foothold in society and politics since the fall of the dictator Suharto. Indonesia is regressing and is introducing more draconian laws clearly pushed by conservative Muslims and it’s secular status is nowadays merely a facade.
If you give the situation a little more context, you can see the west’s hands in this as well, similar to Palestine and other former colonies. After being brutally exploited by western powers, there were many secular and moderate resistance movements. Because they were socialist and considered a threat to the western dominance they were either ruthlessly bombed, like Laos and Vietnam, or the west supported dictators like Suharto, because they promised to kill all the communists for them. Even though the dictator is gone now, it will take many years for a moderate generation to grow again.
The exact same is happening in Palestine. The west supports Israel’s ethnic cleansing, meaning that the only resistance that is left is groups like Hamas.
will take many years for a moderate generation to grow again.
Will never happen when rich Arabs keep pumping millions into rural areas to promote their hateful version of Islam
Palestine wasn’t a colony.
First by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British empire, now by Israel
They were occupied by the Brits not colonised.
For context, this was a demonstration of 3,000 people ‘several of which’ apparently called for a kaliphate.
They’re a tiny idiotic minority of the Muslims living in Germany and you’re ‘this is exactly why I’m against Islam’ - which of course is exactly the response the radicals are hoping to trigger.
How is democracy going in Muslim majority countries? I can help you: Indonesia and Pakistan.
I mean, democracy isn’t doing too well in lots of countries at the moment. India, China, Russia, North Korea, and arguably strugglijng in a large Christian near-theocracy, I can think of.
I absolutely have a problem with fundamentalist Islam, but luckily fundamentalism isn’t ubiquitous. The big problem is where you have the toxic combination of any regious fundamentalism with populist nationalism.
These kind of regimes frequently seem to seem into power where moderate/secular parties have been seen as ineffective or corrupt or both - see how Hamas took over from Fatah/the Palestinian Authority in Gaza.
So again: How is democracy going in Muslim majority countries?
And I’m not claiming that Islam is the only thing threatening democracy. I would not say it’s even the worst threat - but it’s there, not sure why anyone who is interested in a liberal society would deny it. By the way - before you ask, Catholicism is also a threat to liberal society.
How is this relevant for Germany?
It shows that there is a general problem with modern Islam and liberal democratic society. While we have several Organisation in Germany promoting Islam, with rather questionable funding.
The arguement remains absurd. Going with this logic, any problem ina democratic country would be a problem with all democratic countries.
So European countries would have problems with mass shootings, because the US has them. European countries would be commiting massive war crimes because the US and Israel do. Health care would be in shambles everywhere because of the US. All countries would be poor because of the less economically developed Balkan countries and so on.
You cannot say Problem with X1 in place Y is the same as Problem with X2 in place Z. The surrounding conditions make X1 and X2. different.
You misunderstood my logic.
any problem ina democratic country would be a problem with all democratic countries.
My statement would be more like: a problem occurring in most democratic countries, would be indicative of a systematic problem with democracy.
Interesting. Would you call it the “Muslim problem” ?
No, I would describe it like I described it, to avoid miscommunication. Why would I use populist language?
You said there was a general problem with Muslims that you saw? If it’s general, and attributable, why would you not call it that? Are there other larger problems that you see with Muslims that you think are even more attributable and deserving of the title?
It shows that there is a general problem with modern Islam and liberal democratic society.
No it doesn’t! It barely makes a supposition for Indonesia and Pakistan, without proving anything, and it means absolutely nothing for Germany.
Sure, if you think modern Islam goes well with liberal society - I would like you to elaborate.
There’s millions of muslims living in Germany and you’re jumping to conclusions based on a demonstration held by 3000 people and two countries that have nothing in common with Germany.
Having some experience with Indonesia: it’s not perfect but the Indonesian democracy is currently more stable less threatened than the US
Are Muslims in Indonesia pushing for a less liberal society? And yes, USA have also a problem with conservative Christianity pushing for a less liberal society. But like I mentioned before - Christianity went though reformation and we have more liberal versions, for most part, peacefully coexist together. While the only (to my knowledge) liberal mosque in Germany closes down due to threads.
What an incredibly one-sided argument. Any conservative, no matter the religion is against LGTBQ. Look at America, or any conservative christian political party in Europe. Heck, even conservative atheists are often against LGTBQ.
But separate from that, even conservative muslims deserve to defend themselves against colonialism and genocide.
The same holds true for any radical group and currently Germany is radicalizing itself into fascism again, so you would need to make the same argument that it is best for Germans if there is no Germans in power in Germany.
The Terrorists try to drive a permanent wedge in societies AND between countries AND between religions.
You are a prime example of how excellent those Terrorists have achieved their goals.
I don’t need terrorism to be afraid of a religion that worships a child rapist and hates atheists, LGBTQI people and women. The wedge is in the religion. At least with Christianity there are some groups who are more progressive.
That’s concerning… Who would you consider the most existential terrorist threat at the moment and why? Do you not believe there should be a separation of church and state? Is that an exclusively terrorist goal? What is a key wedge issue these terrorists use (so that we can all be more aware!) and how do they make it permanent?
Keep your bad faith arguments to yourself and get lost.
Where is there any bad faith there? If you don’t feel like talking that’s fine but at least flesh out your opinion to demonstrate it’s validity.
Anyone who downvotes this hates LGTBQ people and women.
Could you name me a fascist Muslim nation? I looked it up and strangely couldn’t find any…
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Several of the approximately 3,000 participants chanted slogans and held up posters calling for a “Khilafah” (caliphate) in Germany.
I’m not actually sure that one can do that without hitting conflict with Germany’s Basic Law.
Yeah but they don’t really get specific. It’s like a political protest where someone yells hang em, it was said sure but it didn’t necessarily reflect the intent of the protest or the other Peters protestors.
Haha what an argument is that supposed to be? So wer can’t judge people by what they say but have to assess each one individually?
Yes? The fuck you talking about? You somehow think it’s ok to judge a group but it’s loudest assholes?
Tja
Waiting for the next German elections.
They’re gonna elect some actual Nazis aren’t they?
Not really ~80% of people here are sane in their heads and are against far-right parties.
Well, with Linke/Wagenknecht busy, FDP possibly voted out and AfD over 20%, there aren’t that many democratic coalitions besides Kenya (Christian Conservatives (Black), social democrats (Red), liberal greens (Green)), which is, given the current situation (especially for the media), likely not very stable.
I’m sure there are some very fine people on both sides
So the obvious truth is starting to get shouted in the streets: the muslim communities dream about a caliphate in Europe. It will get messy for our kids.
LE: typo
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Where to? Many of these people are born Germans. Do you believe the countries of their parents or grandparents are interested in taking in these nutjobs?
This is a German problem and we must solve it ourselves. More money for political education institutions and programs is sorely needed.
More money for political education institutions and programs is sorely needed.
We need to stop providing populist and outside powers direkt and targeted access to citizens. Was kind of important thing through out history - we just kind of forgot it.
This.
Religious studies is a mandatory subject in school, so I’m baffled that there’s still such an egregious gap in Islam lessons taught by state-approved, scientifically educated Islam teachers sworn to the German constitution. Because, for reference, that’s what Catholic and Protestant religion teachers are.
Why let Ditib Imams or otherwise potentially radicalized preachers spoil the Muslim youth? Germany needs to define and proliferate a modern, moderate and peaceful Islam.
I am german and never had mandatory religious studies in school
The Germans had a solution for that kind of question in the past. They looked at the grandparents. I don’t recommend.
Where to? Many of these people are born Germans. Do you believe the countries of their parents or grandparents are interested in taking in these nutjobs?
Yeah, but a quite a few were stupid enough to not take German citizenship. We don’t have have a full ius soli after all. Hence a lot of them will have home countries which are legally obliged to take them in. Of course getting these countries to adhere to the law is a different question, and it might need the threat of sanctions to get it working, but in this case I’m open for pretty much any solution. I wouldn’t do that to someone who merely exploited asylum rights to live a better life, but if we have to deport someone because they want to overthrow our democracy, I’m perfectly fine with putting them in a dinghy 12 nautical miles outside of their home country (i.e. the maritime border) and telling them to row.
Making the problem smaller would make the - indeed necessary - solution that you propose easier to implement. Plus it would create a lot of room and political will to help people who actually need Europe as a save haven.
a lot of room
This translates to “eine Menge Raum”, btw.
Ship them to Gaza. Easy solution. They can build their dream society there.
Well, we’d have to be reasonably certain Israel doesn’t just immediately kills them upon arrival - even deluded zealots have human rights and in Europe they can be controlled without deadly force - but apart from that: Yeah, they’d fit in. So when the war is over a gain and when the Palestinian Authority want aid again, we will have to include taking these people in as part of the any agreement.
Provided of course they’re not citizens. Otherwise we’ll have to de-radicalize them ourselves and there are some approaches that might work. E.g. I remember an interview with a prison imam who was paid by the German government. Part of his job was to explain the extremists in that prison that their version of Islam would entail half of them losing body parts and the other half being killed. I imagine that’s quite a good selling point for an enlightened version of that religion.
- What law did they break? Police is investigating whether and which laws have been broken
- People have individual human rights, you can’t deport people for demonstrating nor for petty crimes
- You can’t deport German citizens and you have no evidence at all that the protesters were not German
People will vote for parties who will pass laws that enable the state to act swiftly and harshly.
People have individual human rights, you can’t deport people for demonstrating nor for petty crimes
But staying in Germany isn’t covered by human rights. German law already stipulates that anyone who endanger liberal democracy (freiheitlich demokratische Ordnung) can deported. No conviction necessary. Not even proof beyond reasonable doubt. Just a reasonable level of certainty that our interest in getting rid of them outweighs their interest in staying here.
Foreigners whose stay endangers public safety and order, the free democratic basic order or other significant interests of the Federal Republic of Germany will be expelled if, after weighing the interest in their departure against their individual interest in remaining in the federal territory, taking into account all the circumstances of the particular case, there is an overriding public interest in the foreigners’ departure. §53
We obviously need to distinguish here, some people may just have been naive and ended up in that protest accidentally, but for the rest: I really hope they throw the book at them. We always say “Nazis raus” (Nazis out) and I like that very much and here we have a case where we can actually deport quite a few de-facto nazis. Let’s just home enough of them aren’t citizens (the citizen thingy is a problem with the traditional Nazis).
Your quote does not support your statement. People have rights, and we have to uphold them. This absolutely has to be proven in a court, and if there is a shortcut around having a trial with evidence, then this is lawful but not right. “Endangering public safety” is not something that you decide based on reading articles online and having a gut feeling that they shouldn’t protest.
Vibes based deportation lol
This absolutely has to be proven in a court,
Of course there would be a court case, but not a necessity to prove beyond reasonable doubt. There are different levels of proof required in different scenarios. If a court sends someone to prison they need to prove with absolute certainty that this someone committed the crime. If they make someone pay for breach of contract they just need to make it reasonably certain that they breached the contract. Afaik deportation follows the latter pattern.
“Endangering public safety” is not something that you decide based on reading articles online and having a gut feeling that they shouldn’t protest.
Of course not. I wrote
We obviously need to distinguish here
Hence I obviously don’t want to just put everyone in that protest on a plane tomorrow. To me joining such a protest is a reason for suspicion. I.e. the authorities should start investigating these people and try to distinguish those who were in the wrong place at the wrong time from those who actually want to overthrow our democracy.
This is a German issue, exporting it won’t solve it.
People like you are the problem.
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Neither OP nor you want a degradation of the rule of law and human rights in Germany. To achieve that, it is necessary to have a significant majority of people on board with democracy, especially in religious communities. Deporting people without democratic values would mean, in a republic with rule of law, that also Christians without democratic values have to be deported (I assure you there are many in Germany). Where to? Rome? Greece? Israel?
The idea is to deport foreigners without democratic values. You obviously can’t deport people who don’t have a foreign citizenship, but you can and should deport people without German citizenship when they show to be enemies of democracy.
Only some 47% (excluding converts) of Muslims in Germany are German citizens and the group of citizens is mostly of Turkish or Balkan origin. I.e. from a group where religious extremism is a lot less widespread than in MENA.
It’s crazy that this is even a controversial opinion.
Because it can only be one or the other? Why not both?
Yes…it literally can’t be a democracy and a caliphate at the same time.
There are no shortage of Islamic jihadists who openly say they intend on overtaking democratic countries via immigration and birth rates in order to change the laws.
An issue Europe is struggling with is the lack of societal integration from the refugees that have been absorbed over the past couple of decades. You can see the frustration in this very thread.
You don’t see the irony in asking for deportations for the people that are protesting being deported from their homes?
They are german. None of them are being deported or face deportation. They enjoy all freedoms of a democracy and the protection of free speech in germany while trying to destroy it.
Ahh yes. Deporting people for their political views is surely a great selling point for “liberal” democracies. Right up there with telling women what they are allowed to wear, because that is surely an expression of a liberal spciety were women enjoy rights.
All these things are doing is confirming the claims that are made by radical preachers about our hipocricsy.
The good old paradox of tolerance. There needs to be a line somewhere. And “I want a caliphate” is clearly past that line.
I would say deporting people for holding a certain opinion is something requiring less tolerance.
If someone works to undermine the free democracy that is perfectly punishable by existing laws.
Well, holding an opinion obviously isn’t something we can or should forbid. Voicing it however, especially publicly in a protest, is something that has always been subject to certain limitations in Europe. Spreading certain messages simply is a way of undermining free democracy, hence it can be punished. I don’t know if asking for a caliphate is covered by criminal law in Germany, but it’s clearly problematic enough to warrant certain actions. E.g. deportations for foreigners and bans from entering from civil service for citizens.
You want to see people dead because of religion? That’s just like having a vagina. Keep going! Nothing to see here.
Where did he say that?
Deporting people for religious views compared to women wearing clothes.
As I’m reading his posts he thinks that both deporting people or prescribing what women can wear is not fitting for a liberal democracy. I don’t see where he does want to see people dead because of religion.
what the fuck are you even talking about?
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EU is democratic. That’s why it obeys democratic principles like not discriminating against religions.
What you support is called fascism. And this is really bad.
That’s why it obeys democratic principles like not discriminating against religions
Well, look where it got us! If you’re feeling suicidal, do it on your own, don’t drag the rest of us. Fuck every single religion. If you believe it’s ok to murder and rape in the name of religion, well, fuck you too. Religion is the cancer of society. Also, do I get a point for hating all religions equally?
As I said, I don’t care about your religion. If you aren’t religious, it’s fine, too. Hating people who are religious is questionable. It’s like hating people who wear jeans. Let the people do what they want.
It’s not at all like that. You wearing jeans is your style choice, I might like it or I might not, but ultimately it doesn’t concern me in any way. But your religion, well, that concerns me quite a lot. I don’t want to die when yet another muslim decides that their favorite child rapist should not be made a caricature of (funny how everyone was all “je suis Charlie”, seems quite forgotten now). Or that another good christian decides that the child rapist from the local church should be just moved to another church instead of turned over to authorities (next time he surely won’t rape any children). Or when the oh-so-devote christian nations decide that women should have no say over abortions.
And I could go on, religion is cancer that’s destroying lives. No other cause than religion has killed more people in history of mankind. And it’s not like they didn’t try, especially Hitler and Stalin, but religion still wins. So yeah, I won’t be thrilled when Jews are scared to go out of their house here in EU because we’ve imported way too many muslims. If they want to live like pieces of shit, they can do so in their shitholes.
There are many bad things to happen with jeans, too. There is child labor. There terrorists wearing jeans. There are other people I don’t like wearing them, too.
Don’t mix up up extremism with things that are harmless. Have you ever been in a predominantly muslim country? I am regularly and I cannot confirm that all muslims are terrorists or even support them.
What a coincidence that the ones protesting against Israel are mostly muslim then.
Nazis historically don’t like religions and Israel especially.
Democracy = rule of the majority. It’s totally acceptable to halt immigration and control your borders.
If a majority supports fascism, it’s still fascism
Fascism requires a dictator and oppression of the opposition.
No. Every modern Democracy recognizes the need to protect minorities from the rule of majority. Especially in Germany since the rule of the majority lead to the most gruesome genocide in history.
You can halt immigration in a democratic way. But not by discriminating against religions, races or genders etc.
I think that there is a concerted effort by right wing Zionist media and politicians to discredit support for Palestine by smearing all protestors as Islamists and anti semites.
As an ex-muslim, it is dishonest to say there no correlation between islamism and the arab ‘palestine’ sympathiser demonstrators. I would even estimate the intersectionalism between the 2 groups to be over 90%.
I didn’t say there’s no correlation. I said that the pro Israel white supremacists are painting everyone as Islamists.
That’s an interesting number. How did you arrive at it? Why ex-muslim, if you don’t mind me asking?
Zionist media. Hmmm now where have I heard that?
Ah yes the anti semitism card.
Yeah the counter-propaganda works in this one.
Okay so question: What do y’all think a caliphate is? While it’s not something I’d expect most Europeans to support given the lack of separation of church and state and all that, “caliphate” is (to simplify) a state ruled by the laws of Islam, which while again aren’t things most Europeans support (the lack of LGBT rights coming to mind) it’s not like these people are trying to recreate ISIS.
Let’s not pretend that religious stewardship of any state has ever not resulted in human rights abuses. The idea of a caliphate in Germany should rightly horrify the German people. Fundamentalist Islam (or Christianity) can easily cite scripture to justify child brides, executions, and domestic violence.
So let’s flip the question; why aren’t you horrified at the idea of a caliphate in Germany, and seemingly hand waving the atrocious results it would bring?
I’m not handwaving it; more saying that it seems like everyone in the comments is acting like they wanna kill all non-Muslims or something, with stuff like “this is what happens when you invite Muslims into your country” and shit.
I do appreciate the distinction. At the same time, it’s hard to look too favorably on a group that immigrates to a country, and then advocates for the establishment of a religious state and all that that entails. And while no country has clean hands when it comes to human rights abuses, most of the places you can be executed for your beliefs are religious states to one degree or another. More specifically, looking at the Islamic world, you have Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. None with good records for how they treat, well, anyone other than devout Muslims. The only countries I’m aware of that are majority Muslim and don’t execute people for their beliefs is places like Albania, which is a secular country despite being Suni Muslim majority. So the issue isn’t Muslim majority, the problem is people who want religious states. E.g., the people you are defending from the article.
A Caliphate would not be compatible with our Constitution. Also the organisation behind the Demonstration is banned in Germany. The reasons where the following (excerpt from an archived website from the Constitution Protection Service Brandenburg (translated with DeepL):
"Hizb ut-Tahrir not only denies the right of the state of Israel to exist, but also calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. The organisation is thus massively opposed to the idea of international understanding; it is also unacceptable that it approves of the use of violence to achieve political goals.
Yeah that makes sense.
