TLDR at the bottom
Hello everyone,
i’d like to discuss something that was brought up last night on the pp show.
“I do have a small little announcement here. The pp show as many know the subreddit was nuked. off reddit, which was very sad. you know, we don’t have really, i know X is a good replacement in the meantime, so, but we need a forum, right fellas? so, one of the pps out there actually reached out to me, and i actually did a video conference with them, he’s a super nice guy, and it turns out he’s gonna be building a PP show mobile app man! so right on! so pretty soon we’re gonna have our own platform, not X, not Reddit, it’s going to be a PP god damn platform, fellas. Full app and everything, so soon enough, we’ll be able to move our DD there when things explode man there’s always gonna be more stocks to talk about, so things will never get nuked again. It’s not even Lemmy man, it’s gonna be an app! so a full on PP app, fellas. right on, I’m super excited, and yea i’ll be paying to host it for everybody and all that, so right the fuck on fellas”
Obviously, pp can do whatever he wants for his show. If pp wants to have a mobile app, that is terrific. I will be cheering on the development of the app and I hope it succeeds and helps the show and helps the community.
However, if the objective of creating the mobile app is to have a “forum”, allow me to use this Lemmy post in this existing Lemmy forum community, to explain why it will be challenging to have “a mobile app” as a forum.
1. A mobile app will exclude non-mobile access.
So one person is going to develop a mobile app? So it will only be usable on mobile devices, not laptops or desktop computers.
2. It must either be 2 apps (1 for Android and 1 for iOS), or half of all mobile users will be excluded
Which mobile os, Android or iOS? So one developer is going to either create and then maintain 2 full distinct apps, one for Android, one for iOS, or, this developer will create just 1 app for one of these operating systems, and the other half of all mobile users will be excluded along with PC and laptop users.
3. Because of the network effect, getting users to join a new competing social networking app is hard.
Putting the other stuff aside, let’s assume that it is somehow an app that is usable by Android users, iOS users, as well as PC users, no problem. Like the way that a web-based app like Lemmy works.
Because of the network effect, it will be a struggle to onboard many users. It’s largely for this reason why there are currently not so many users here on Lemmy. It’s sort of a chicken and egg problem.
Think of that scene in The Office, S3E2: The Convention, where Michael is trying to get a party started in the hotel in Room 308, Party Central. Michael tries to recruit people to join his party. A few individuals go to Room 308 only to find that it’s just Michael there alone and a bunch of bottles of liquor, and so they don’t stick around because there’s no actual party. There’s no party because there are no people, and there are no people because there is no party.
Social media is kind of like this. People tend to want to be where the action is, and up to this point that has historically meant places like Reddit and X / Twitter.
Twitter and Reddit and YouTube are enormous centralized networks. E.g. Reddit and Twitter both have around 500 million monthly active users.
The fediverse, in comparison, has roughly a mere 2 million monthly active users.
Because of sheer size of reddit’s network, it made it relatively easy for ~ 20,000 users to gather in the same subcommunity.
But, oh no, Reddit is a centralized platform that reserves the power to get rid of anyone they don’t like from their platform that belongs to them, and they got rid of that subreddit that we all used to enjoy. that location for ~ 20 thousand users no longer exists, and we now find ourselves in the situation we’re in.
So some people went to X. how many people joined the pp show community on X? around 5 thousand, not close to the nearly 20 thousand of the subreddit, and that’s with many users already on X. To get to 20k will take time and effort. Also, as pp mentioned, in the long run X isn’t really a proper forum is it?
Some people went to Lemmy. how many? a few hundred.
say in a few months, PP releases a premium mobile app. how many people will join? how much of a community will exist there? How long would it take to get to 20,000 subscribers?
It won’t be easy to get a fresh party started on a new app.
4. The federated model is superior to a standalone model
It seems implied that this app that will be developed will be its own standalone social network app of some kind, and not federated or otherwise connected to any existing network.
the folks behind the website DRSGME.org went through a similar ordeal as the pp show community is currently going through, when reddit banned r/DRSyourGME.
That group ultimately decided to start their own Lemmy instance and I’ve been using it ever since. I wrote a post just yesterday on why, in my opinion, Lemmy and the fediverse is cool.
TLDR of that post: The federated model connects you to a larger network while still giving you full authority over your own instance, should you choose to run one.
If you have a standalone app / social network, you will be in a much smaller bubble, not connected to any larger network at all, which will make it that much more challenging to grow the community.
So, what are the options going forward?
- use existing centralized social media platforms, like Reddit, X, and YouTube.
- Pros: largest networks, largest benefit from the network effect, therefore largest reach. apps are very functional and polished, high production value.
- Cons: Centralized authorities reserve the ability to deplatform you at any moment. There is no reason to assume that YouTube is perpetually safe. Our opponents who aimed at getting the subreddit shut down are also aiming to get the YouTube channel shut down. Don’t say it can’t happen.
- Use a new bespoke app, developed specifically for the purposes of this community.
- Pros: pp retains full control over the app, the app can be designed or customized in any particular way to suit the requirements. Can have a theme of dildo upvotes / downvotes and whatever else you want.
- Cons: among what is discussed throughout this post, it will take time to develop an app, and it will take ongoing effort to maintain it. If it’s 2 apps, 1 for both Android and iOS, then there are 2 codebases and the work is doubled. It’s a lot of responsibility and expectations for 1 single developer. Deplatforming can still happen because Google and Apple retain the ability to get rid of any apps that they don’t want in their app stores. Using 1 centralized bespoke app also necessarily implies 1 single point of failure.
- Use the fediverse and federated apps
- Pros: the fediverse is an existing social network of about 2 million monthly active users that anyone can plug in to. It currently exists and is ready to be used. Right here, right now. Anyone using any fediverse app is technically able to connect and interact with anyone in just about any other fediverse app. Lemmy can be accessed from a web browser on any device: PC, Android, iOS. There are also third party apps specifically for Android and iOS that can be used. The fediverse enables you to connect to an already existing social network while allowing you to retain full administrative authority over your instance and community. Effectively, you cannot be deplatformed, if you are your own platform host. (btw a federated YouTube alternative exists called PeerTube)
- Cons: Lemmy or other fediverse apps may not be perceived as being as “cool” as other options. It does require some amount of time and effort to host your own Lemmy or other fediverse instance. You can choose to not host your own instance, such as this community here we are currently in, but then you are at the mercy of the admins of whatever instance you are in. If those admins happen to decide one day that they don’t like you, they could remove you from their instance. Although these apps are open source, they currently don’t necessarily allow for the level of customization that might be desired. as of now, I don’t think it is possible to implement dildo upvotes and downvotes. But, over time such ability could be integrated into the open source software.
@Ppseeds, I hope you read this post and consider what I have written here with an open mind.
The purpose of this post is not to try and discourage the idea of having a bespoke app created for this community. In stead I simply want to address the reality of what options exist, and why some options might be preferable over others. I am obviously biased and believe that the fediverse is the best long term option, but maybe it turns out that I’ve got it all wrong.
I personally will continue to use Reddit, and X, and YouTube, and various Discord channels, and Lemmy.
TLDR: Of the available options, the fediverse (e.g. Lemmy) is the only option that gives you the power to connect to an existing social network while retaining full administrative authority of your community, and the only option that gives you the tools to ensure you cannot be deplatformed.
Great post Jersan. I am of a very similar mind, I’ll share some other context and my perspective.
I’m Chives, one of the DRSGME.org / WhyDRS.org site admins. I was a DRSyourGME reddit mod and I am a DRSyourGME Instance Admin here on Lemmy.
Our Subreddit was banned about 6 months ago now, but we had seen the writing on the wall and had begun testing alternative platforms when Reddit first imposed additional regulation on our sub (not allowing user and subreddit tags). We were ready to launch our Lemmy instance before the platform ban arrived.
DRSyourGME had about 15,000 users when it was taken down, and our Lemmy instance currently has about 800 native users with about 1,100 subscribers to the largest community on the instance. We chose to run our own instance rather than opening a community on a larger instance (the way this community lives on the lemmy.world instance) because we wanted complete assurance that nobody could ever deplatform our community again. I believe it is worth noting that the lemmy.world instance admins can shut down this community if they ever chose to. I’m not saying that is likely, only that it is possible, due to how this community was started.
All this to say that I do feel having an additional network, such as an app, is a really neat idea. That said - it’s going to take time, and it’s going to take transparency and honesty for people to be receptive. What will the data collection policies be?
Growing additional resources is valuable, I certainly believe that, but we also should take advantage of what is here now. Lemmy is an open source project which is similar to Reddit in function and, crucially, is actively growing.
PP’s app idea as a forum is the stupidest shit he’s said yet. He forgets that he isn’t the main character of this community, and it was simply dumb luck and circumstance that led to his handle/name being in the subreddit’s name we all congregated in. I fear he’s trying to capitalize/monetize on his 15 minutes, and this isn’t the way. I’m not installing a “PP app”, but I would actually donate money to someone(s) wanting to stand up a dedicated “stonks”** lemmy server. Hopefully we have a conclusion to this story before the ambitious dev intern who offered their services has a prod release.
** FoilVesting? FTDville? Or default to the existing WhyDRS ?
What’s most important is that there is a space for retail investors passionate about these discussions to congregate, and to continue to congregate, without fear of future deplatforming.
Over at the DRS Lemmy instance, we don’t have monetary donations available at the moment - we are covering hosting out of pocket as a courtesy to the community.
That said, we do welcome all “stonks” discussion. There are already some (fairly inactive) BBBY communities set up over there, and I did encourage PP to set up a community on the DRS instance a few weeks ago. Real_Eyes and edwinbarnes were users who did come by and set up communities.
Like with all Lemmy transitions though - I definitely expect it to take time!
Yes, gotta give PP props for championing the cause, calling shenanigans and keeping on going (hats off, my dude) but we’re centred around BBBY (I am, at least). It’s not a cult of personality.
@Ppseeds - I’m sure it’s a headfuck to have had such a stream of attention and validation/hate/love/online attacks/Pultelove these past weeks, but please try to keep a level head as best you can.
Agree completely, PP needs to be here and not on some random, closed source app
Decentralized and open source pls
hear! hear! 👏 👏
Get in here PPs, we’re going to Uranus.
I would like to see a PP App, but I think it would be really a poor use of resources to build their own centralized forum within the app. I think the forum should be Lemmy. And that the app should be more than just a forum.
Not much else to add between what you and Chives said.
I agree. Decentralization is the way.
The App Store could deplatform us just like reddit already did…
Yup. Good luck getting people to go through the effort of side loading your custom .apk once it’s not allowed on the big stores for “reasons”.
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Exactly. It’s a steep hill to climb.
But it’s best to get climbing now and not take the lengthy path that seems easier but ultimately leaves you right where ya started once the app goes, too.
Centralization is the opposite of progress. Nothing new even needs to be built to largely replicate the previous r/pp experience. It pains me to see the lack of adaptation
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Agree with the posts and comments. We’re up against the people who own those platforms, or their friends, so we need to be as independent as possible.
Lemmy has baggage from its founders, but that seems to be less of an issue as the general fediverse grows and no longer federates as much with them. Discussion only yesterday in a lemmy.world post about this very issue.
One thing about the whole story is that many facades are falling away. The stock markets, the banks, political manipulation, and the tech bro self-justifications.
The downside is that moving also leaves behind members who are less technical. I see this with people trapped in Gmail and hate it and “can’t” move.
So what could be useful here is a web app which would connect people who can only grok how to use an app. Those are mostly just specialized browsers, Mastodon has several already. It would add access to this place to their app drawer.
Have the app load and interact with this instance by default, it’s already got momentum. Then all the app users get added instantly once they download it and open it. If they want to post, the app helps them sign up. If they search for certain words in an app store, like drs, the app shows up.
We could probably just use one that’s already made. That way no maintenance, we can donate to the devs directly.
As long as there’s no motive to enshittify this instance, it won’t become Reddit.
I do think that changing downvoting would also help. Maybe have to downvote arrow go to Report so that shills can’t use it to hide info. They’ll have to write out why the post should be downvoted.
Also, we can all help by posting stuff we find. I’m not in the financial business, so I post stuff that seems relevant over in whynotdrs. One thing that seems to be true is that when I post something shills don’t like, it gets downvoted. It’s a sure way to find their sore spots.
So if you see an article about failing banks or The Fed or CMBS failures, take a moment to share it with us.
Word, it’s cool but it can’t be only a mobile app, it needs to have the same content accessible from any device…
An app is a waste of time and money. Fediverse is here and ready to go. Bring more redittors to the lemmyverse and improve the durability of our community
