There is a kid in one of my gaming groups who mentioned off-hand earlier this year that he believes a lot of what Andrew Tate says is valid and that men should “reject modernity and embrace masculinity”. I think took us all a little by surprise because he’s a smart kid who doesn’t come off as an obvious alpha male type at all. We had to figuratively sit him down and explain why Tate is full of shit and that his whole schtick is just preying on young men who lack guidance, as is the case with many of these MRA grifters. I don’t know this kid personally so I can’t say for sure if we had any effect on him, but I hope that we were able to demonstrate that all that bullshit is not actually relevant to manhood at all. I know he looks up to a few of us in particular, due to our high level of skill and experience with this particular game, so I hope the fact that those role models (of sorts) took the time to talk to him about this stuff actually had a positive influence on the way he views himself and others.
I think it’s really helpful when the quieter men speak up and demonstrate that there is another way. The idiots are always the loudest by default, so young men and boys are naturally drawn to them due to the vacuum that exists in this area. As I get older I definitely feel like I have more of a responsibility to make sure younger people around me, particularly men and boys, are going down the right path or are at least aware that there are alternatives. In certain male-dominated spaces, like team sports or social media, I definitely see and hear a lot of problematic behaviour and messaging that just goes unchecked.
Hell yes, young men need this. Else they wouldn’t fall for Tate and similar grifters.
I’ll bet you guys made a big impact on the kid. You at least got him closer to a happier healthier life than he otherwise would have been.
If we did make an impact, the bulk of the credit would definitely go to some of the other guys who made more of an effort than I did. I find it difficult to speak up in those situations, since it can be very challenging if I don’t feel like an authoritative figure to the person. Usually I just try to lead by example, which can be helpful too but isn’t always what is needed. Sometimes you need someone to be brave and stand up without knowing if anyone else in the room will support them.
Men need feminism too. Patriarchy and toxic masculinity harm both men and women in different ways.
Patriarchy
You know the thing that bugs me the most about social patriarchy is the same thing that really gets me about anti-apologetics. There is the notion that there needs to be this unilateral action of sorts and straying from it shows weakness of sorts. It’s not uncommon to hear conservative and traditionalist indicate that admitting wrong is a sign of weakness. And the reality is that we learn best from our own mistakes. Trail and error is an incredible teaching tool.
Patriarchy goes against what we actually know about how human beings learn things. It goes against the nothing of taking multiple inputs to come to a conclusion. It goes against the process of being well informed. It’s these absolutes within this kind of system that give rise to the various toxic behaviors. I think if men actually sit there and actually listen to women and allow women to participate in decisive action, men will learn infinitely way more.
Men need feminism too
Exactly. Good objective thinking relies on taking all input and being able to share executive action. Humans aren’t stronger than a bear, we’re not faster than a cheetah, and hell we don’t live nearly as long as most trees. The quality that humans have that places them above all else, is thinking and reasoning. And we do better at that quality by broadening our horizons not limiting them. The whole wild arguments of “well male lobsters assert dominance…”. Lobsters or whatever animal a particular someone who I won’t name tries to parallel us with, they don’t reason and think in any remote sense the same way as humans. It’s silly to try and take some biological aspect of our species or other species and draw a conclusion about how we should use the thing that makes humans, human.
But that is just my hot take on this.
Ah yes. Let’s blame men for men’s problems. That should fix everything.
This shit is the major contributor to the problem. A woman expresses and embraces femininity? “You go girl!”. A man expresses and embraces masculinity? “You are broken and you are the problem of our society, and everything bad that happens to you is also your fault”.
And don’t give me this “Toxic masculinity is totally not just masculinity”. Almost every masculine trait has been called “toxic masculinity”. You might have your specific definition for what it means, but so does everyone else and together you all cover pretty much every facet of masculinity.
Out of interest, what are some masculine traits that you feel are being rejected by society?
toxic masculinity
Ah yes, let’s use a gendered term to refer to behavior that’s not ok in either gender, because calling the general term for male attributes toxic will make young men feel welcome. Yes, I’m aware what “toxic masculinity” refers to.
If you know what it refers to then why complain? Why pretend this is some big attack on masculinity as a whole when it’s obviously not? Toxic is an adjective, it is used to separate the bad stereotypical attributes of masculinity from the good. No one is suggesting these behaviours can only exist in men and I don’t know why you’re so offended by the use of gendered words when we are specifically talking about problems associated with one gender. Enough with the manufactured outrage, engage in good faith for once.
I’ve seen this from men recently here. They are attacking words like “feminism” and “toxic masculinity” with crap like this. It’s because they know they have no real arguments against them that they go for ad hominem attacks. They hate the word “feminism” because they’d rather have equality for “all” and imply feminism is equality for women only. Now this dude is attacking “toxic masculinity” because “women can be toxic, too” apparently. As if it wasn’t coined because the predominance was found in men and was trying to call attention to issues men face. It’s just a new tact in misogyny.
You’re right, it is a common tactic from the right to just immediately present any given social issue as an “attack on X”. But I also think instantly lumping people into that group isn’t always helpful either, which is why I asked for that person to chill with the hysteria and actually elaborate on their point. Unfortunately they are clearly intent on divisiveness and meaningless point scoring, so at that point you can hardly blame us for assuming the worst of their intentions.
As if it wasn’t coined because the predominance was found in men
Following that logic, should we stick to gender markings in job titles when jobs are predominantly performed by one gender?
If you know what it refers to then why complain?
Did you even read the headline for this post?
Why are so many boys and men feeling alone and in the cold?
Which relevance does my understanding have to the understanding of a 12 year old boy?
Rather than make snarky, half-arsed replies why not take the time to articulate why you think “toxic masculinity” is such a problematic term? Why not engage in good faith with other people instead of instantly trying to turn this into yet another polarised yawnfest argument?
why not take the time to articulate why you think “toxic masculinity” is such a problematic term?
I did in my first reply:
a gendered term to refer to behavior that’s not ok in either gender
snarky, half-arsed replies
Projecting much?
Opening with “ah yes” followed immediately by sarcasm is snarky. And yes, 13 words is a pretty half-arsed attempt. I think you can do better.
I think you can do better.
Sure, for which of the 13 words do you more context to understand?
I did in my first reply
Look I get the knee jerk on hearing male. “Oh we’re talking about masculinity, that’s an attack on me.” But the topic at hand is masculinity.
Why are so many boys and men feeling alone and in the cold?
Yes, toxic behaviors exists in both mainstream genders. Shallow ass women who play on male insecurities is a thing. BUT that’s not the topic here. Like, you shoving the whole “but the other side” thing really comes like someone walking into a hospital being outraged they aren’t going to do a quick dental clean while you’re there. You’re in the wrong place. There is such a place to go to, but it ain’t here.
I mean nothing but love for ya, but the knee jerk comes off a bit hard. Like we can have that discussion, but honest, I don’t think this is the thread for it. It feels like it detracts from introspecting by way of blaming the other team. I’m not downvoting you, I get where you’re coming from. But I just feel it’s distraction.
And that is my opinion on the matter and nothing more.
you shoving the whole “but the other side”
You entirely miss the important point here. It’s not about “muh other side”. It’s about sending young boys the message “toxic masculinity” over and over while they grow up and are trying to explore what masculinity means to them. Sure, if you give them a seminar on what “toxic masculinity” is supposed to mean every time you use the term, some of them might understand what you’re trying to say, but that’s not what’s happening. And every time a young boy questions the term in confusion he will be attacked “but the other side” yadda is not valid like you just did to me.
deleted by creator
to be fair, the article specifically references “toxic males” and is focused on the challenges for young men in particular. What seems obviously lacking in the story is any reference to the diminished economic potential that all young people face. 30 years ago education and housing were somewhat reasonably priced and and generally available to all. Economic stress is a huge factor and immediate source of stress and anxiety that is completely ignored in the article. How is one supposed to feel ‘cocky’ while struggling to keep their head above water financially?
Men get so bent out of shape whenever they even could be considered at fault for anything.
Meanwhile the word hysteria exists…
No, people get bent out of shape because it’s a gendered, sexist term. End of story. Just like man-splaining. You can discuss male specific toxicity and men being condescending without using terms that very clearly are divisive and prejudicial.
If you use the terms while pretending to be progressive or for equality then you’re a liar and a hypocrite. Hope that helps.
It doesn’t. Because this is a misogynist talking point. But you know that. That’s your goal.
deleted by creator
Not sure what you’re trying to say. That the word hysteria exists is bad… because it assigned a certain behavior/emotion to women? And because of that assigning a certain behavior/emotion to men is something we should welcome?
You should look up the origin then. Because your clearly concern trolling at this point.
Ah yes, jump to ad hominem immediately when you don’t have anything productive to say. Hysteria, can you do something constructing and give me a meaning that contradicts wikipedia?
The first fucking paragraph is the point. Literally everyone knows this.
And it’s not an ad hominem when the position I’m criticizing and the term mean the same thing. Your bigotry is appallingly obvious. Shoo.
I don’t see how what I wrote contradicts the first paragraph, I paraphrased the first sentence. Anyway, so your point really is “a word exists that shows women had it bad, so it’s ok if I use a word now that treats boys and young men badly”
Well, yeah mate
‘Boys don’t cry strong silent type don’t show any emotion beyond anger’ is not a societal pressure applied to women.
It is however, very much a toxic version of perceived masculinity
I feel like this might be an unpopular opinion, but it’s just based on my own experience and interactions with young men. I think there’s a kind of… ‘hyper sexuality’ that has inadvertently pushed platonic intimacy to the wayside, and I think platonic intimacy is an extremely important part of socialisation. I’ve met so many young men who have such an over-sexualised view of everything, that they’re unable to have healthy platonic relationships, or even maintain ‘platonic’ components of romantic or familial relationships. Sexuality is a good thing, but I feel it is a similar problem to the prevalence of highly refined foods that can barely be considered food at all and the health impacts of that, I think there are likely mental/emotional/sexual health impacts of that ‘hyper sexuality’. The fact alone that there are men who struggle to become aroused except with some very specific, often times grotesque material says a lot. That’s of course at the far end of the spectrum, but I can only assume that there’s be similar (albeit lesser) effects all the way along. It’s like there’s a whole fridge/pantry full of delicious healthy food, but young men have had a box of Fruit Loops shoved into their hands like it’s actually enough to keep them going and help them thrive socially/emotionally/sexually.
If you don’t mind sharing, what kind of experiences and interactions are you referring to? As someone in my early 30s I find it so hard to get a read on if/how younger people have changed from when I was their age. I have been in a long-term relationship since my early 20s so haven’t interacted with anyone younger than me via dating, and all the relationships I’ve made with younger people from work/sport/gaming are too superficial to really pick up on any differences. I can’t be sure at all whether there are actually new problems developing here or if it’s just the same stuff from when I was a teenager but exacerbated (we were all obsessed with sex too). The internet has given rise to so many influencer sociopaths that can reach young people more easily than any other adult role model in their life.
I don’t have first-hand experience since I’m 18, but I imagine it’s just stuff like casual hugs or stuff like that. All physical intimacy is supposed to be for your partner now (at least in men), and as such hugging a friend would mean you’re gay and banging him.
Run kids through 12 years of school. Teach them little that engages them or makes them feel valuable. Tell them for half of those years that their best hope to achieve happiness is to go to college so that they can earn enough to consume the good life and then retire. Then wonder why so many lack a sense if purpose and belonging.
Some kids are fortunate. They have a family that truly support them, helpinh them gain experience in life and some insight into finding their way. For those with families that aren’t that way, finding your way can be much harder. A significant amount of kids have parents that are checked out. Sometimes it’s because the parents are too busy working. Sometimes its for worse reasons.
12 years in a school system that is failing to teach boys, putting them out there on a worse educational standing and than shipping many of them off to go work in the mines or our houses.
Boys need support that society is failing them.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The prevalence of self-harm among young men is an outward sign that many are lost, failing to come to grips with what it means to step up and be a good man in a post #MeToo world.
English feminist journalist and broadcaster Caitlin Moran told the ABC recently she spent a long time shooting down such suggestions when they were put to her by the mothers of teenage sons.
“Never being able to cry or admit vulnerability; the bubbling anger; the shrugging acceptance of violence; the memory of hitting friends; the prize of recklessness; the need for alcohol or drugs; the total lack of advice, or guidance.”
Moran says not knowing where to turn is still leaving far too many young men out in the cold and prime targets for every vocal toxic male on social media.
Brisbane introduction agency owner Linda Prescott agrees that many young men are lost when it comes to relating to the opposite sex.
Ms Prescott gives men and women clients a dating rule book, pointing out areas of clear difference in expectation and judgement.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I hope everyone got to the point in the article where Top Blokes is mentioned because that’s a good news story.
No, it can’t be patriarchy and the toxic masculinity ideology perpetuated by it. That involves punching up at those with actual power and authority.
It must be those tyrannical feminists
Let’s keep discussions civil and respectful
