It has long been the case that American women are generally more liberal than American men. But among young Americans, this gender gap has widened into an enormous rift: According to recent Gallup polling, there is a 30-point differencebetween the number of women age 18–30 who self-identify as liberal and the number of men in that demographic who do the same.

That’s largely because young women have gotten much more liberal, while young men have stayed ideologically more consistent—or, according to other analyses, become more conservative and anti-feminist. (Of course, not every person identifies as a man or woman. But gender roles still play a big part in shaping our lives and politics, and in the context of this column, I am focusing mostly on the vast majority of Americans who identify as one or the other.) It’s not happening just here either; the political divide between the sexes is a trend that researchers are observing in some other countries too.

  • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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    8 months ago

    All I’m really asking for is for people to say anything at all besides just “men” when making complaints about certain men. It doesn’t need to be precise, just clear enough that it’s obvious that all men aren’t the target of criticism

    Right, but isn’t it a bit far fetched to be taken literally? That there are a significant amount of women who hate every man in their life?

    If I said men love sports, would you demand me pretext that with “not all men”?

    I’m not doing that. I’m making my point in a thread that’s specifically about why feminism is often seen in a bad light. Where else could I possibly find a more appropriate venue for such a criticism?

    That was in reference to the “not all men” rhetoric.

    I’m saying it causes an emotional reaction that is extremely unhelpful for productive dialog.

    Maybe that means you may be overreacting?

    I know better than to say “not all men”. You’re missing something critical: while I used myself as an example, my comment was not about me.

    You’re just validating their interpretation?

    It’s about all the men who see women talk that way and come away with the impression that feminism is hostile to them just because they’re men.

    I think people whom think that way are just finding pedantic reasons to be upset at something they already have made opinions about.

    You don’t need to convince me of anything, and even if you did, convincing me would not solve the problem.

    Not trying to convince you of anything besides my original retort, communication about politics is hard. Just look at our conversation.

    • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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      8 months ago

      communication about politics is hard. Just look at our conversation.

      It might not be so hard if everything you said wasn’t dripping with condescension.

      • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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        8 months ago

        Lol, are you this overdramatic every time someone disagrees with you? I think you may be a bit sensitive when encountering criticisms, which may explain the whole taking the generalization of men personally.

          • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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            8 months ago

            Ahh yes, I forgot. Anything that runs counter to your expert opinion is condescending.

            Sounds like a perfectly legitimate rebuttal…

            • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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              8 months ago

              Let’s see, you said I was reductive, I’m overdramatic, I’m a misanthrope, I’m seeking absolution, I’m intentionally misinterpreting things, I’m pedantic, I’m constantly detailing conversations with women, I’m pretending to be an expert…

              I was trying to have a conversation about the state of feminist discourse, and you’ve tried to make it about me at every turn, to the point that you’re constantly making shit up about me. So now that I think about it, you’re worse than condescending. You’re an asshole who responds to disagreement with insults and then you have the gall to accuse me of doing what you’ve been doing the whole time. Big narcissist energy, bud.

              Feel free to keep wasting your time disparaging me, since you seem to be enjoying it so much, but I’m done with this sad excuse for a conversation.

              • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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                8 months ago

                I was reductive

                No, I said that the women who claim it is all men’s fault were using reductive reasoning. I then said your generalization about them was utilizing similar reductive reasoning.

                misanthrope, I’m seeking absolution

                You said misogyny was different because it was internalized. My rebuttal was that misanthropy is also internalized.

                I’m intentionally misinterpreting things

                I said people who share that that particular belief often intentionally misinterpret things. But that’s not exactly rare for people to believe in things that suit their interest.

                overdramatic, pretending to be an expert…

                Those I meant, but that was after you had your little fit.

                was trying to have a conversation about the state of feminist discourse, and you’ve tried to make it about me at every turn,

                You made it about you when you kept using anecdotal evidence… I’m not making this about you, you just keep interpreting it that way. Even though you claim these aren’t your beliefs, you keep saying I’m making things personal when I’m criticizing the belief.

                You’re an asshole who responds to disagreement with insults and then you have the gall to accuse me of doing what you’ve been doing the whole time. Big narcissist energy, bud

                Projection

                keep wasting your time disparaging me

                You have a penchant for taking things wildly out of context and making the whole conversation about you.

    • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Right, but isn’t it a bit far fetched to be taken literally? That there are a significant amount of women who hate every man in their life?

      It’s enough for me to know that the one who brought that rhetoric into a portion of my friend group, an acquaintance of mine (I won’t call her a friend) actually does mean it, or at least says she does.

      The fact that she got one of the kindest people I ever met to parrot that same misandrist rhetoric hurts.

      It shifted me away from self-indentifying as feminist. Nowadays, I say I’m pro-gender-equality, and embrace the values of classic feminism if someone asks.

      • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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        8 months ago

        It’s enough for me to know that the one who brought that rhetoric into a portion of my friend group, an acquaintance of mine (I won’t call her a friend) actually does mean it, or at least says she does.

        Right, but isn’t making a judgment call on feminism in general, based on a single anecdotal experience a bit dramatic?

        I have tons of personal experience with racism, I don’t automatically associate all white people with the actions of a few radicals.

        It shifted me away from self-indentifying as feminist. Nowadays, I say I’m pro-gender-equality, and embrace the values of classic feminism if someone asks.

        I think that’s really damaging to the social fabric of progressive politics. I don’t think that anyone who actually studies feminism holds real ill will to all men, it’s just not cohesive with the ideas of mutual support feminism was founded upon.

        Corrupting the social understanding of feminism has been the long term goal of conservative politics for decades. I don’t think there are many people who hold true to this ideology, I just think the ones who do are having their voices amplified by conservative media. And I think the point of this amplification is to interrupt class consciousness among young men, and to make them more sensitive to this messaging.

        I’m not claiming everyone who has a reaction to the problematic generalization of political language is a woman hating conservative. I just think they’re unwittingly amplifying a conservative campaign aimed against protecting women’s rights.

        • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Right, but isn’t making a judgment call on feminism in general, based on a single anecdotal experience a bit dramatic?

          The anecdotal experiences with her (it’s not often I have the luxury of a candid discussion with the type of person who says these things) made me view all the other cases of feminists generalizing about men in another light, and all the cases where someone pointing this out would be told that “No, actually you are the problem because…”.

          I don’t think that anyone who actually studies feminism holds real ill will to all men, it’s just not cohesive with the ideas of mutual support feminism was founded upon.

          Define “real ill will”. Does it actually matter what they want if they are doing real harm? Misandry has become increasingly more common in the past decade, both online and irl, and in my experience, speaking up against it paints a huge target on your back.

          I just think they’re unwittingly amplifying a conservative campaign…

          This right here is part of the problem.

          I’m trying to discuss a serious issue that is harming men, and after three paragraphs of downplaying it as not being a problem, you turn it around and write that the real problem is me bringing it up. That’s fucked up.

          • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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            8 months ago

            The anecdotal experiences with her (it’s not often I have the luxury of a candid discussion with the type of person who says these things) made me view all the other cases of feminists generalizing about men in another light, and all the cases where someone pointing this out would be told that “No, actually you are the problem because…”.

            Is that opinions not lacking a bit of nuance though? As I’ve said, I’ve experienced racial violence from white men, this doesn’t mean that all white men are racist, and it doesn’t mean that all racist people are violent.

            Define “real ill will”. Does it actually matter what they want if they are doing real harm?

            I think that is dependent on your definition of “real harm”, but as far as ill will I was originally thinking of people who actually blame every single man for all of life’s difficulties.

            Misandry has become increasingly more common in the past decade, both online and irl, and in my experience, speaking up against it paints a huge target on your back.

            How exactly do we define misandry, and how do we know it’s increasingly more common? Could it just be more amplified because there is a political motivation for doing so? The people who tend to “speak up against it” are people like Jordan Peterson and Tate who profit from radicalizing young men.

            trying to discuss a serious issue that is harming men, and after three paragraphs of downplaying it as not being a problem, you turn it around and write that the real problem is me bringing it up. That’s fucked up.

            Right, but we haven’t established that it’s actually happening with anything besides anecdotal evidence. So far my theory is just as valid as yours, except my theory has suspects with clear motive.

            problem, you turn it around and write that the real problem is me bringing it up. That’s fucked up.

            I’m not trying to be dismissive, but I just haven’t been presented any evidence not supplied by personal experience, so my rebuttals are going to seem personal. I’d much rather you present evidence from a third party so we may avoid this situation.