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- cross-posted to:
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Protectionism only works in the VERY short term. If the USA doesn’t pull its finger out of its ass and make affordable good EVs, then its automotive industry will crash and burn. Because the rest of the world unaffected by tariffs will be buying Chinese (or Korean / European) EVs and not American ones because they’ll be expensive and suck.
they really willing to throw the planet under the bus so they can protect their own oligarchs. so much for the free market.
I would mind less if the American auto industry was producing affordable lightweight EVs…
Best we can do is a four ton truck.
Or cars with any level of quality.
Hey man the Toyota I drive was made in the USA, it’s great.
…that go straight into the landfill?
No, I’d prefer they get used. What an odd question.
It’s not really an odd question from that particular user, if you consider the context that they have an agenda; FUD and misinformation about EVs.
To that end, this means we would need to lower standards, use some forced labor, and increase taxes to increase subsidies in order to compete.
Republicans would shoot down the subsidies.
Just producing EV versions of Honda Fit or Ford Fiesta like what the Chinese EV makers do is enough. Instead, they keep producing EVs with luxury features (and high price tags) then surprised people won’t buy them without subsidy.
You’re describing the Bolt and it sells terribly here. The Model 3 outsells it 20:1 in any given month.
The Bolt isn’t cheap though (almost 2x of Honda Fit price), and wasn’t produced in sufficient quantity. The Chinese EV companies are somehow able to produce entry level EV models with minimal features at a price cheaper than Honda Fit and they’re selling like hot cakes both domestically and in neighboring Asian countries.
No it literally wouldn’t. It’s absolutely possible to produce smaller lightweight vehicles with the exact same standards. But unfortunately we’ve all been pushed towards larger vehicles. Simply because they make more money on them.
Unfortunately producing a smaller affordable car for the average person would fall under “lower standards” 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The push towards large vehicles was due to the fact that they used a truck chassis, and were exempt from safety and emissions requirements of a “car”
Not if it’s electric (for emissions)
While true, the general cultural preference for larger vehicles will inherently carryover to when people are deciding what EV to buy.
It doesn’t matter what size car Americans build, they simply can’t compete. Larger vehicles are a cultural preference and fits the American environment.
If this was true, the Chinese EVs could be allowed in and no one would buy them. I personally want a smaller car that can comfortably seat 5 and has additional safety and comfort features (backup cameras, lane assist, heat pump climate control, etc.). This could easily be done with a sedan, hatchback, or station wagon. The only cars that have these features that I know of are SUVs.
Not exactly true when they’re selling them for $10k-$15k. The Bolt is comparable to a Chinese EV and they only sell around 2k per month while something like the Model 3 sells 50k per month.
If you lowered the price of the Bolt to the price of a 10 year old used Camry, I’m sure it would sell a lot better but this is an artificial price that completely distorts the market and puts a lot of people out of work for what amounts to a temporary savings. This is the whole point of tariffs. They level the playing field for everyone.
They discontinued the Bolt. They needed the factory for trucks.
Something something free market
The free market is propaganda to trick people into thinking capitalism is somehow ethically solvent.
Hey, capitalism is only good when it makes the rich richer…
China flooding the market with cheap EVs still makes the rich richer… Just different rich people in a different country.
Right… Except the average person, we can’t have that
Yes, but then the more people can afford to buy EVs. Under the current system you need to be well off to buy one, vs an ICE.
Might be a valid argument if China didn’t play currency games.
Also, the protectionist in me wants American heavy industry to continue to exist.
I want American heavy industry to be good enough to continue to exist. Otherwise we’re just a house of cards waiting for a stiff wind.
Imagine believing that China is the only country playing “currency games”.
It’s all just imaginary numbers based on printed paper.
Isn’t it a national security risk?
Then he should solve the issue by requiring the code to be hosted on American servers with source code inspection.
Not by making EVs unaffordable.
Novel idea: make a car, not a cloud service. My phone is better at navigation etc anyways.
My phone is better at navigation etc anyways.
You could similarly argue that phone makers should concentrate on making and taking calls. Turns out, that’s not what consumers care about once a certain bar is cleared (a pretty low bar; call quality is notably bad on many modern cellphones). They care more about other stuff like… being good at navigation.
This has been put to the market test in China. For EV purchases, most consumers turn out not to care about the “car” aspects beyond a certain point. If the car drives okay and has acceptable safety, what matters is the Internet-based bells and whistles.
“source code inspection.”
Great idea. That way it can be put on pause indefinatly because that shit takes years.
On top of it. You can NEVER be certain anyway because there’s code burnt into the chips that you cannot read.
Then make it so the manufacturer cannot just push cloud updates without permission from an oversight committee.
Raising the price does nothing at all to fix the security issues.
No. It doesn’t. Exactly. So why are you suggesting source code reviews?
Fix no, reduce attack surface 100%. Lets say hypotheticaly u know a foreign country is going to fuck u in the ass would you A let them fuck u with 60million dicks or B make it expensive so u are getting fucked over less.
Why are you making stuff up? Cassinos have code audits and don’t stop working.
It’s just not the same to review code that runs a slot machine.
And code that runs a whole car.
One of the two is a whole lot more complex and probably had millions of lines more than the other.
I’ll let you guys which is which
Yes a big risk. Both natsec and IP theft are major concerns and cars are fully mic’d, compromisable, and to top it off, plug directly into your phone.
Then he should solve the issue by requiring the code to be hosted on American servers with source code inspection.
Not by making them unaffordable.
Because no car company would ever lie about the software there cars are running or go to extreme measures to hide that its not what it claims to be when being tested.
Do you have a phone in your pocket?
If you do then congratulations. All of the data your car would collect is already out there for sale to the CCP.
If you’re talking about people who have high level sensitive conversations in cars, then yes. But that’s an incredibly small group and they have those conversations in government vehicles that are all made in the US.
Yes, it runs grapheneos.
Irrelevant.
I’m talking about the mass deployment of spying devices across an entire country mapping every street running facial recognition collecting military related data. The idiot who buys the var who cares its everyone else.
The data they can just scrape from Google maps? Hell they can see where soldiers are deployed because of their fitness apps sharing running routes on social media.
This is black helicopter level conspiracy shit.
Just because I already was backdoored without a lube by person A, doesn’t mean I’d love to be backdoored again by person B.
It doesn’t make sense to bar an entire sector of EVs over it either though. Caring about it only when that country does it is the peak of bigotry and simping for the executives who would happily grind you down for profit.
I’d prefer to be ground down for profit by greedy american pigs than be put in a concentration camp by the CCP.
And how is the CCP going to put you in a camp in the US? You sound like conservatives who are afraid the UN will declare a peace keeping mission here.
Then China shouldn’t subsidize its manufacturers’ exports while increasing the burden for foreign companies to compete internally. If anyone thinks China cornering the global EV market is a good long term plan, they are naive.
The US subsidizes american car companies too. Pot calling the kettle and all.
We subsidize exports? Show me.
Where does that say anything about exports? The article is talking about US factories and this coincides with the federal government implementing stricter fuel standards on these same manufacturers. This money is to help them ease into developing brand new platforms after implementing stricter standards.
Furthermore, that $15B is a drop in the bucket for what China is subsidizing. That equates to about a single quarters worth of subsidies for a company like BYD in order to sell their cars for $10k-$15k out the door.
BYD doesn’t sell their cars abroad for $10-$15k.
China charges nearly double for its EVs outside of the Chinese market. They tend to do what most companies do, charge the highest price that people will still pay. China domestically is the most competitive market in the world, so they have $10,000 high quality EVs, but they don’t have to do that elsewhere and so they don’t.
So you admit the cars are better and cheaper?
I don’t see how they’re going to pass the safety regulations here and in the EU. A ton of their ICE vehicles never made it here because they’re dangerously designed and built.
The Volvo EX30 is based on a Geely platform, made in China, and does well in the EU (won several Car of the Year awards).
MG (SAIC/Roewe) also has no trouble selling in the EU.
Chinese manufacturers can make regulatory-conforming cars when the market demands it of them. If the market wants cheap and doesn’t demand safety, they can do that too.
That’s not %100, the EX30 is still engineered and developed in Switzerland and pretty much everything MG wise, was and still, is developed in the UK…yes both are owned by Chinese companies, but it doesn’t mean the products are solely Chinese. You are correct they can build cars that are designed to conform to western markets with much stricter regulations, but I don’t think they’re going to do so without significant input from branches in these countries.
They’re already selling in Europe. To good reviews.
I do t want the Chinese EVs because there falling apart exploding crushing more exploding and.there just not safe
Edit:Sorry about this I get political when I don’t sleep sorry about this
I’m interested in seeing the statistics for this, as I’m looking at a new ev and it would be nice to see.
Because you wouldn’t just make something up would you, you must have the figures to substantiate your claim.
Anecdotally cheap Chinese EVs are all over Costa Rica and even there they’re generally known to be garbage. Like how do you get a fairly car rusty in Costa Rica? Even if you live exclusively on the beach you’d have to have some really bad paint and 0 rust prevention done.
Which EV brands? Those Chinese EVs aren’t created equal, the good ones are great for its price, while the bad one should be named and shamed.
Ma’am, do you want me to call 911? you’re exhibiting signs of a stroke.
Contrary to teslas that don’t explode and don’t rust. BYD is dominating with affordable EVs while other countries keep prices astronomically high.
No need to apologize when it’s true.
But Elong Musk’s shiny acute angle isn’t? You’re a fucking idiot.
With how china keeps implanting everything with spyware, I agree to keep them away from the heavy tech incorporated cars. Really wish we could transition away from using chinese shit
All auto manufacturers put spyware in their cars now. This isn’t a china problem, this is an everyone problem. We need anti-spyware laws that apply to everyone.
I agree, but in the meantime lets not make it that easy…
It’s that easy. They can and do already buy most of that data from American companies anyways.
Rip all the computer shit out of your car and slap a carburetor on it, problem solved.
Oh? More spyware than GM selling your data to your insurance company? More spyware than all of the stuff your smartphone collects?
It’s absolutely a bad faith argument to say we can’t have Chinese cars because they conduct industry standard data scraping.
The whataboutism doesn’t help. It’s a wrong practice regardless of nationality. But since the house and senate is bought by the corporations, at the very least ban those who you can.
It’s not a whataboutism when that’s the other choice. This isn’t out of left field. I can buy Chinese data scraping, Japanese data scraping, Korean data scraping, German data scraping, or American data scraping.
Right now Germany actually wins that contest because GDPR just might have an impact.
A whataboutism would be me talking about American labor practices in farming. Not great, but also not relevant.
The Tariff is actually against Steel and Aluminium heavily subsidized by the CCP and flooding the market. At no point in Biden’s speech did he talk about EVs or electronics.
Chinese EVs are piece of shit death-traps anyway that tend to explode for no reason.
Make them in Mexico. Less reliance on one country is better for everyone.
They’re trying to block mexican made Chinese vehicles as well. They don’t want Americans buying cheap evs.
The tariffs are for Steel and Aluminium, intentionally shifting the discussion to EVs is disingenuous, just like the article.
Make them in USA.
They don’t want them to, they want you to keep using gas.
Anti China Republicans are going to HATE this! They would MUCH rather Elect the man whose Daughter got over 70 patents FASTTRACKED in China once he was elected!
They would just put their hands on their ears and repeat “Hunter Biden laptop” until a scary fact like that one goes away.
“We want expensive American EVs that most people can’t afford, not cheap Chinese ones…”
China is subsidizing EV production and selling cars below cost. Allowing them to be sold in the US would kill the domestic EV market. How is that better for Americans?
wasn’t that the whole point of capitalism anyways? /s
Americans get cheaper EVs and the legacy auto industry gets taught a valuable lesson as companies who refused to modernize go bankrupt.
Americans get cheaper EVs…
For a few years, until the American automakers go bankrupt, as you said, then the Chinese automakers increase prices 10x.
…and the legacy auto industry gets taught a valuable lesson as companies who refused to modernize go bankrupt.
What a valuable lesson, get subsidized by an authoritarian government so that you can offer vehicles below cost. Also be sure to add spyware for the aforementioned authoritarian government.
Do you even understand what below cost means? No amount of modernization will counteract it.
Did we lose our industry when the Japanese auto manufacturers entered our market? When the Koreans did?
What’s different this time?
until the American automakers go bankrupt, as you said, then the Chinese automakers increase prices 10x.
Americans can also buy EVs from countries other than China. America can also subsidise internal EV production.
My point is that we shouldn’t give a fuck about petrol loving manufacturers.
What a valuable lesson.
Respond to user demand and environmental pressure.
Don’t arrogantly assume your polluting product will remain market leader.
Don’t build ever bigger vehicles just to avoid particular regulations.
Do you even understand what below cost means?
Yes. Would you like some oil industry case studies?
No amount of modernization will counteract it.
Have you heard of R&D investment, continual process improvement and economies of scale?
Well, they’re actually heavily subsidizing steel and aluminium, which are coincidentally what these Tariffs are for. It was never about EVs specifically.
Also by claiming “developing nation”, which is up to the nation to decide for themselves instead of having someone else decide for them, the planet’s second largest economy gets to claim WTO rules that the recipient (country) pays delivery. That’s why you can buy something from China for $1.50 and yet it costs $150 to send it back if it doesn’t work.
He actually doesn’t talk about EVs at all, this tariff is against cheep steel and aluminium that the CCP is subsidizing.
If only he could extend that rationale to every industry
Actually, he’s announced increasing the existing tariffs against Chinese Steel and Aluminium. He didn’t even talk about EVs at all.
Are we really going to do this today?
From the article at the top of the page.
According to The Wall Street Journal, the Biden administration will announce plans to roughly quadruple tariffs, to 100 percent from the current 25 percent, as well as tack on an additional 2.5 percent duty.
Correct. Tariff’s on Aluminium and Steel. More importantly, WSJ cite the video of Biden giving a speech about steel and aluminium.
Imagine this as a headline:
Breaking News: President Biden Announces War on Chinese Soda.
That is an equally true title.
And Semi Conductors. But that’s besides the point. This is corroborated all across major media. You’re just gaslighting at this point, hoping someone reads your comment and just never checks.
I’m gaslighting? Me? Not the news article trying to convince the left that they’re anti-EV?
Obligatory fuck cars
What’s the problem with EVs?
They partially solve the fuel and the bad air problems. In exchange they damage roads way more (I recall reading that the damage is proportional to the vehicle weight to the fourth power, probably with some more nuance) and that also creates substantially more rubber micro particle pollution. They also happen to be more dangerous in the event of a crash. Plus the additional challenges with grid load, which some people dismiss with silly ideas like having said cars act like load balancers (that would be a mess to scale).
In most cases, EVs are not a solution to mobility, they are a solution to save the car industry from real solutions to climate change, namely spamming trams, trains and buses (in sparse locations) all over the place.
(I recall reading that the damage is proportional to the vehicle weight to the fourth power, probably with some more nuance)
Yes. Road damage is based on vehicle weight. To the 4th power, yes. Heavier vehicles do exponentially more damage than lighter ones. https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/opinion/opinion-cars-have-a-weight-problem-and-its-damaging-more-than-the-environment/
But actually it’s based on axle weight. This is why Semis have many axles, to spread the weight out.
But actually it’s based on tire weight. This is why Semis have doubled wheels on their axles.
But actually it’s based on contact pressure. This is why Semis have wider tires than your standard car.
It partially fixes a single problem of the many caused by car-dependency and car-centric infrastructure
EVs are a step in the right direction.
However, EVs only change one aspect of cars: How they go vroom vroom.
They are still heavy metal boxes operated by random people. Most drivers suck (myself included probably), they are lazy and don’t follow the local law on driving.
They are absurdly dangerous, for people inside other cars, themselves, and pedestrian. Anytime someone goes too early with their car it’s potentially an accident with death causes. Same if they spin their funny wheel a little too much.
Imagine yourself overtaking a car on the highway. Now let’s say the driver slips by accident, wheel stairs to your sidey giant death machine crashes yours from the side, and its a horrible accident.
Besides that, car infrastructure is absurdly expensive, and becomes even more expensive Everytime it needs to be renewed. The city I was at school at is literally one of the poorest in my country after having endless money in the 70s, because they built too many roads. They built some roads not on the ground but in large pillars, and it’s literally falling apart.
Lastly, cars take up tons of public space. Cities designed (or rather bulldozed for) cars sprawl, need huge parking lots, huge streets, produce noise pollution, regular pollution.
There is much more but that should suffice for now.
That being said, I doubt we can ever go truly car free. Remote regions do not have enough people for good public transit to be maintainable, and the distances are often too long for walking or biking. Deliveries need some kind of individual vehicle. Some of that can be addressed with EVs and car sharing.
Sadly, EVs are being presented as the all around solution.
Go ahead and walk, no one is stopping you.
Ironically, cars are stopping me. Roads used to be for walking, and now they’re for cars. They gave us sidewalks and now some places don’t have them, and are unwalkable. The bike lanes either don’t exist or are too dangerous to use. It’s all roads and stroads now, with speed limits dangerous to pedestrians, and large SUVs meaning that car crashes with a pedestrian are more likely to end in death.
The amount of people in cars has also crippled public transportation. Buses aren’t quick, and there are so few of them in general. Not to mention the lack of high speed trains, and the inefficiency of our subways.
Giant parking lots with no cars took our parks. Took our public spaces. Took our nature. And they’re everywhere. Everywhere I look is dull, grey asphalt.
It’s depressing to be outside. And where would I walk to? Everything is too far away to walk to. It used to be a 5-15 minute walk away. Now it’s more like 40 minutes to hours…
I’m tired of human interests and public transportation being overlooked so that people can drive a couple minutes faster to their destination. When people in Europe, Japan, and China can just… get on a train.
Sorry for the rant but I hate this bs
I literally do that to go to work and university. I walk to my local train station 20 minutes and it’s amazing that I can. It makes me wake up, even as someone who hates to get up early and gives me time to listen to music, podcasts or think about personal stuff.
That being said, it’s not true that no one is stopping me. All those idiots that park in the sidewalk are stopping me. All those idiots that endanger me with their crappy super heavy metal boxes are stopping me. I literally have to stop when I want to cross the road.
And besides that, walking is only possible if you don’t live in a car infested hellscape (luckily I do for the most part). Otherwise, the next destination is hours away by walking, rendering it pointless, and walking becomes very dangerous.
The US doesn’t control the supply chains. Biden subsidizes EVs as well. US labor is too expensive and the resale value of EVs are very poor. If there is a country that can make EVs cheap enough, it is China. The EU and US stand no chance. Even with safety standards and 27% tariffs, Chinese cars are still cheaper, and the quality is good. US currency is artificially too high. US traded in their manufacturing for financialization. This is a case where Joe Biden can’t beat the global market, with the rest of the world buying China. American EVs are a flop.
It’s not US labor that is the most costly, it’s US executives and c-suites
