This is the first half that everyone wants to champion but reality is that drugs of any kind - treatments of any kind - have side effects and lasting effects.
Hitting pause as everyone so eloquently puts it does actually have effects outside of underdeveloped sexual organs. It’s not a magic bullet.
I’m not against someone being who they want to be but do so after the age of consent when your development is slowing down. It’s safer.
As far as what children are equipped to deal with: That age range is for discovering their identity. Hitting pause is a disservice to that cause. Yes the physical changes are a real thing - but those changes aren’t all sexual either and are affected by the drugs we’re shoving onto these kids.
If anything the current culture is forcing them to make a decision on “take these drugs now or you won’t be perfect.” Fuck that. Pushing a decision on them like that, regardless of our intent, is no better than denying who they are (or who they may become) outright.
I may not advocate for changing children when they are developing but once they have more time to be certain of who they want to become - I’m all for it.
Nobody thinks there’s a magic bullet, but you seem to imply that continuing with the wrong puberty will not leave lasting effects. Delaying is the least bad of three imperfect options. You’re complaining about “putting a decision on the child”, while taking that decision away from them, the parents, and doctor.
Simply waiting “until they have more time to be certain” is not a neutral decision; it’s deciding cis and worsening the consequences if they’re not. They’re consenting to a medical procedure - not to sex - so the age of consent [for sex] doesn’t apply; informed consent medical ethics do.
I understand your view however I disagree fundamentally on a few aspects of it… please bear with this line of questioning:
Why is it imperative they chose so early? (I know the answer but play along… I promise this has a point)
If the reason you stated is physical … why are we discounting the physical risks associated with the side effects? Do those outweigh the safety and healthy life of that person later in life? Are we overly applying weight to physical appearance over safety? It’s common in a lot of other scenarios…
Recall that my assertions are pointed at effectively highschool age and below: not all of a body’s development (sexual and otherwise) occurs at this phase. Post highschool the young adult is now able to make decisions (largely) for themselves. Around that time they have a much better sense of identity as well. Is it absolutely critical to force that decision prior to that considering that?
Why not counseling and emotional support during their early development and let them make the decision when they are more legally capable after that time?
That got longer than I wanted but I’m curious what your thoughts are.
Risks of medical intervention always should be weighed against risks of nonintervention.
If there is a significant probability a child is trans, delaying puberty may be the least intrusive option. There is a chance of negative effects, like with all medical interventions, but if they are most likely trans forcing them to undergo puberty is much more likely to have long term negative effects (including suicidality).
Why is this specific medical decision equivalent to kids having sex? Do you view other procedures, like deciding to have braces, the same way? What about much riskier treatments with a muddled short/long term prognosis, like some heart surgeries?
Risks of medical intervention always should be weighed against risks of nonintervention.
Agreed. I have expressed as much when discussing adverse effects.
If there is a significant probability a child is trans, delaying puberty may be the least intrusive option. There is a chance of negative effects, like with all medical interventions, but if they are most likely trans forcing them to undergo puberty is much more likely to have long term negative effects (including suicidality).
The first statement while correct is ignoring that if they are in fact trans there is a high likelihood of hormone therapy and/or surgery regardless. The statement about the psychological aspects is oft tied to discussions like these: They rarely factor in adolescents in general are an increased risk during this time. Funnily enough councilling and familial support are typically the strongest way to combat most cases which stem from isolation and fear/confusion.
Why is this specific medical decision equivalent to kids having sex? Do you view other procedures, like deciding to have braces, the same way? What about much riskier treatments with a muddled short/long term prognosis, like some heart surgeries?
edit: I misread the above and combined it with another discussion from a prior thread. sorry!
Ultimately because the choice can effect you later in life. This is one of the reasons we apply the gravity to it that we do. There are other parallels. In the end we acknowledge that a more developed mind can weigh those pros and cons and make a (more?) informed decision. I absolutely pushed this perspective to 11 to get a response but I firmly believe it is an acceptable equivalent in terms of weight of decision.
Hmm… Mostly because sexuality is tied to who we are. Does it determine every aspect of our existence? I’m not freud 😂. No. But it is undeniably a facet in our complex understanding of self.
Braces are an interesting choice; they have health benefits as well as effect our outward appearance. Surgeries (as I think I’ve expressed before) don’t quite fall into this category but… If you have a low risk heart condition (relatively speaking) you could dive right in and get surgery (risks) or perhaps wait and do more research on it and become better informed. If anything it would support what I am advocating. (Yes I’m aware you can flip the argument the other way.) I think it’s worth acknowledging that in that scenario that the latter decision is typically the recommended one.
Mostly literal. The first couple are low ball rhetorical - the reasoning is typically appearance based. Voices can change too. I understand the urge to nip that in the bud however we are talking about someone who is far too young to have any certainty on the matter. Suffice to say I know very well about this and have multiple examples but cannot expand on this further. I will say that while it is not often talked about (often because of the backlash) not all adolescents who believe they are the wrong gender end up deciding they aren’t. This too is the cause for a lot of tragic stories. With that in mind is my suggestion/assertions off base? Time is a concern, and is a relevant argument… but why risk early development over a few years against a lifetime where good health is an asset?
There’s a chance of a tragic story no matter what - if the kid goes through puberty with the wrong hormones, it’s going to negatively impact their health forever. These choices need to be weighed on an individual basis with doctor and parental involvement, not one choice for everyone until an arbitrary legal age.
is my suggestion/assertions off base?
Your initial comment is removed, what was that you compared it to again?
As a direct answer to your statement (your question warranted a separate thread):
I agree on case by case. Some will be clear cut but kids are malleable and uncertain. They have very little worldly experience to draw on and need to be protected… universally. My reaction to posts and positions such as this one is visceral. Too many people will bandwagon the ideal and ‘virtue’ of it and in doing so propose overly simplified ideas that aren’t a real (or complete) solution. It’s social media - I expect the response I got to a degree but it is pleasant when it yields a good discussion. It may benefit someone later to be able to observe those views and see that it is possible to discuss differences in opinions without a firefight.
Yeah, I saw that. Apparently rule 3… despite most of the interactions being civil. I petitioned its return as I think it adds context and is worth the discussion:
I made a spoiler text analog to a statement that we should allow underaged (implied age which we have been discussing) adolescents to have complete sexual freedom. Some people clearly stopped reading and took that to some impressive extremes. I had prefaced and followed the statement with an indication that we wouldn’t allow such a thing (and rightly so.) The statement’s intent was to illustrate that we cannot expect someone so young to make informed decisions about certain things.
I believe in a follow-up statement I expanded saying it was equally incorrect for someone else to make that decision for the child/adolescent. It’s too important.
I selected it for its fairly universal acceptance and (as I’ve mentioned) some similar gravity in allowing them to make those decisions so early.
We have been using puberty blockers for a long time. They were around when I was prepubescent. They’re established medicine, and doctors deem whatever the side effects are to be worth helping the children’s mental and physical health.
All medicine is like this. Very little medication has no side effects at all. Yet we give children medicine all the time. Because it does more good than harm.
Who decides if it does more good than harm? Medical professionals. Not laymen on the Internet.
This is the first half that everyone wants to champion but reality is that drugs of any kind - treatments of any kind - have side effects and lasting effects.
Hitting pause as everyone so eloquently puts it does actually have effects outside of underdeveloped sexual organs. It’s not a magic bullet.
I’m not against someone being who they want to be but do so after the age of consent when your development is slowing down. It’s safer.
As far as what children are equipped to deal with: That age range is for discovering their identity. Hitting pause is a disservice to that cause. Yes the physical changes are a real thing - but those changes aren’t all sexual either and are affected by the drugs we’re shoving onto these kids.
If anything the current culture is forcing them to make a decision on “take these drugs now or you won’t be perfect.” Fuck that. Pushing a decision on them like that, regardless of our intent, is no better than denying who they are (or who they may become) outright.
I may not advocate for changing children when they are developing but once they have more time to be certain of who they want to become - I’m all for it.
Nobody thinks there’s a magic bullet, but you seem to imply that continuing with the wrong puberty will not leave lasting effects. Delaying is the least bad of three imperfect options. You’re complaining about “putting a decision on the child”, while taking that decision away from them, the parents, and doctor.
Simply waiting “until they have more time to be certain” is not a neutral decision; it’s deciding cis and worsening the consequences if they’re not. They’re consenting to a medical procedure - not to sex - so the age of consent [for sex] doesn’t apply; informed consent medical ethics do.
Hope this helps!
I understand your view however I disagree fundamentally on a few aspects of it… please bear with this line of questioning:
Why is it imperative they chose so early? (I know the answer but play along… I promise this has a point)
If the reason you stated is physical … why are we discounting the physical risks associated with the side effects? Do those outweigh the safety and healthy life of that person later in life? Are we overly applying weight to physical appearance over safety? It’s common in a lot of other scenarios…
Recall that my assertions are pointed at effectively highschool age and below: not all of a body’s development (sexual and otherwise) occurs at this phase. Post highschool the young adult is now able to make decisions (largely) for themselves. Around that time they have a much better sense of identity as well. Is it absolutely critical to force that decision prior to that considering that?
Why not counseling and emotional support during their early development and let them make the decision when they are more legally capable after that time?
That got longer than I wanted but I’m curious what your thoughts are.
Risks of medical intervention always should be weighed against risks of nonintervention. If there is a significant probability a child is trans, delaying puberty may be the least intrusive option. There is a chance of negative effects, like with all medical interventions, but if they are most likely trans forcing them to undergo puberty is much more likely to have long term negative effects (including suicidality). Why is this specific medical decision equivalent to kids having sex? Do you view other procedures, like deciding to have braces, the same way? What about much riskier treatments with a muddled short/long term prognosis, like some heart surgeries?
Agreed. I have expressed as much when discussing adverse effects.
The first statement while correct is ignoring that if they are in fact trans there is a high likelihood of hormone therapy and/or surgery regardless. The statement about the psychological aspects is oft tied to discussions like these: They rarely factor in adolescents in general are an increased risk during this time. Funnily enough councilling and familial support are typically the strongest way to combat most cases which stem from isolation and fear/confusion.
edit: I misread the above and combined it with another discussion from a prior thread. sorry!
Ultimately because the choice can effect you later in life. This is one of the reasons we apply the gravity to it that we do. There are other parallels. In the end we acknowledge that a more developed mind can weigh those pros and cons and make a (more?) informed decision. I absolutely pushed this perspective to 11 to get a response but I firmly believe it is an acceptable equivalent in terms of weight of decision.
Hmm… Mostly because sexuality is tied to who we are. Does it determine every aspect of our existence? I’m not freud 😂. No. But it is undeniably a facet in our complex understanding of self.Braces are an interesting choice; they have health benefits as well as effect our outward appearance. Surgeries (as I think I’ve expressed before) don’t quite fall into this category but… If you have a low risk heart condition (relatively speaking) you could dive right in and get surgery (risks) or perhaps wait and do more research on it and become better informed. If anything it would support what I am advocating. (Yes I’m aware you can flip the argument the other way.) I think it’s worth acknowledging that in that scenario that the latter decision is typically the recommended one.
I’m sorry, which of these questions are literal and which are rhetorical? If they are trans, then deciding before a cis puberty is less harmful.
Mostly literal. The first couple are low ball rhetorical - the reasoning is typically appearance based. Voices can change too. I understand the urge to nip that in the bud however we are talking about someone who is far too young to have any certainty on the matter. Suffice to say I know very well about this and have multiple examples but cannot expand on this further. I will say that while it is not often talked about (often because of the backlash) not all adolescents who believe they are the wrong gender end up deciding they aren’t. This too is the cause for a lot of tragic stories. With that in mind is my suggestion/assertions off base? Time is a concern, and is a relevant argument… but why risk early development over a few years against a lifetime where good health is an asset?
There’s a chance of a tragic story no matter what - if the kid goes through puberty with the wrong hormones, it’s going to negatively impact their health forever. These choices need to be weighed on an individual basis with doctor and parental involvement, not one choice for everyone until an arbitrary legal age.
Your initial comment is removed, what was that you compared it to again?
As a direct answer to your statement (your question warranted a separate thread):
I agree on case by case. Some will be clear cut but kids are malleable and uncertain. They have very little worldly experience to draw on and need to be protected… universally. My reaction to posts and positions such as this one is visceral. Too many people will bandwagon the ideal and ‘virtue’ of it and in doing so propose overly simplified ideas that aren’t a real (or complete) solution. It’s social media - I expect the response I got to a degree but it is pleasant when it yields a good discussion. It may benefit someone later to be able to observe those views and see that it is possible to discuss differences in opinions without a firefight.
Yeah, I saw that. Apparently rule 3… despite most of the interactions being civil. I petitioned its return as I think it adds context and is worth the discussion:
I made a spoiler text analog to a statement that we should allow underaged (implied age which we have been discussing) adolescents to have complete sexual freedom. Some people clearly stopped reading and took that to some impressive extremes. I had prefaced and followed the statement with an indication that we wouldn’t allow such a thing (and rightly so.) The statement’s intent was to illustrate that we cannot expect someone so young to make informed decisions about certain things.
I believe in a follow-up statement I expanded saying it was equally incorrect for someone else to make that decision for the child/adolescent. It’s too important.
I selected it for its fairly universal acceptance and (as I’ve mentioned) some similar gravity in allowing them to make those decisions so early.
We have been using puberty blockers for a long time. They were around when I was prepubescent. They’re established medicine, and doctors deem whatever the side effects are to be worth helping the children’s mental and physical health.
All medicine is like this. Very little medication has no side effects at all. Yet we give children medicine all the time. Because it does more good than harm.
Who decides if it does more good than harm? Medical professionals. Not laymen on the Internet.
Can you explain what you mean by this?