NixOS’ influence and importance at pushing Linux forward into the (previously) unexplored landscape of configuring your complete system through a single config file is undeniable. It’s been a wild ride, but it was well worth it.
And although it has only been relatively recently that it has lost its niche status, the recent influx of so-called ‘immutable’ distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.
However, unfortunately, while this should have been very exciting times for what’s yet to come, the recent drama surrounding the project has definitely tarnished how the project is perceived.
NixOS’ ideas will definitely live on regardless. But how do you envision NixOS’ own future? Any ETA’s for when this drama will end? Which lessons have we learned (so far) from this drama? Are there any winners as a result of this drama? Could something like this happen to any distro?
In case you’re out of the loop. Though, there’s a lot that has transpired since but which hasn’t been rigorously documented at a single place; like how 4 out of 5 NixOS board members have quit over the last 2 months or so.
This is enough to cause most of the issues.
Not really because this is a pre-installed tool that doesn’t require any hassle to get working.
It wasn’t my experience. I’ve never tried an immutable distro myself because it goes against my personal preferences and needs. I saw that on YouTube. I don’t remember what distro it was unfortunately but I’m almost sure it was Fedora based. Also in case you didn’t know, GTK themes are usually installed in /usr/share/themes so disabling immutable is required to do so even if /usr is the only thing that’s immutable.
Sure but this excuse won’t help new users and won’t stop them turning away from Linux.
I meant the disadvantages of immutable systems here, not stability in general.
I have no idea what a runtime is so I can’t answer this question.
I use the term “immutable system” because someone can create an immutable fork of BSD or even Windows can become immutable. It’s not just about Linux.
You’re on fire, fam! Thank you for another quick one.
Before moving on, I want to make clear that I should correct some of my earlier statements. It probably doesn’t matter, but for sake of completeness.
What I describe above is not meant for immutable systems, but for ‘immutable’ distros.
I didn’t imply otherwise 😜. I was just explaining how immutability works on Fedora Atomic.
Excellent. I agree. So, “disabling immutability” therefore only applies to ‘hacks’. Right?
Thanks for being transparent! I also appreciate you sticking to your values.
I knew this (and also how
~/.local/share/themes
could be utilized for this). But, fair; this is indeed something that Fedora Atomic’s old model didn’t allow. Or, at best, very ‘hacky’. Like, it’s basically not intended for the end-user to put stuff in here. Fedora Atomic’s new OCI-enabled model does allow this. But, yeah…; we ain’t (necessarily) here to discuss implementations. Fact of the matter and the issue at hand is that traditional distros don’t deal with issues like these. Right?IMO, if a new user wants to use an ‘immutable’ distro, then they should just use one of uBlue’s images. They’re like the Linux Mint or Zorin or Pop!_OS of immutable distros. And, as previously mentioned, uBlue’s documentation is at least sufficient. Traditional Linux distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their Manjaro installation. Similarly, ‘immutable’ distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their not newbie-friendly ‘immutable’ distro.
I think I got you now. Like with the previously mentioned issue with placing themes inside the
/usr/share/themes
directory; on any traditional distro, you’d be free to place it there and you wouldn’t even have noticed a thing. While some 'immutable’ distros, like Fedora Atomic, make this hard. Do you think I understood you correctly?The expression “during runtime” is used to express a running and/or currently in use system. So, if my device is off, then the expression “during runtime” does not apply. When I’m using the system or even if it’s just idling, then the expression “during runtime” does apply. However, it’s possible with Btrfs (and more sophisticated technologies) to create a partition/deployment/image on your disk that’s currently not running nor in use and which has some changes compared to your running system. Then, once again, the expression “during runtime” does not apply.
Perhaps, I could be even more elaborate. So, on the overwhelming majority of ‘immutable’ distros (Guix System and NixOS are literally the exception) that offer a built-in mechanic for installing packages to the immutable base system (like the aforementioned
rpm-ostree
that’s found on Fedora Atomic), the changes are not meant to be applied directly on the running system. So, for example, right afterrpm-ostree install emacs
, I can’t just typeemacs
in a console/terminal and expect it to open. Nor does it appear in the app drawer. Only after the (soft-)reboot will I be able to use Emacs; be it through the console/terminal or find it in the app drawer.So, these are examples of ‘immutable distros’ that are only (meant to be) immutable during runtime, because it’s possible to apply changes to a system that’s not currently running/in-use/idle or whatsoever.
Interesting. Thanks for that clarification.
The crux of this conversation lies here I believe. Your notion/understanding of an immutable system is probably more correct and more in line with what you’d expect from its name. However, the name “‘immutable’ distros” is unfortunately not descriptive. Contrary to what you’d expect, it’s not a distro that happens to be an immutable system; at least, not in the absolute/complete sense.
I agree with you that this is misleading and a poorly chosen name. Heck, Fedora agrees with you; they’ve changed “Fedora Immutable Desktops” to “Fedora Atomic Desktops” because of this. However, as bad as the name is, people use the term “‘immutable’ distros” when talking about Fedora Atomic, Guix System, NixOS, openSUSE MicroOS and Ubuntu Core.
That’s why I said this:
And, to be honest, I’m not sure if you answered the bold question.
Thanks (once again) in advance! And apologies for this long comment 😅.
Idk if everything can br called “hacks” but mostly yea.
I know but idk if GUI apps and extensions can see themes installed in ~/.local and how many installation guides tell about that method.
Idk how it works and how simple it is but gtk that.
Exactly.
But we’re talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable. If the user willingly chooses an advanced distro, it’s not the distro’s fault but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream. I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now. This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.
Yes that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate it. And in this case I think my definition of immutability applies to these “runtime-immutable distros” too.
Another (but small) confusion point for new users.
I understand it.
Idk what to answer. Full or partial immutability, it still creates the same issues I described.
Thank you for being patient with me! And thank you for yet another set of clarifications!
I’ve used the term ‘hacks’ a couple of times without properly defining it. My bad. So, I’ve used it in the context of “doing things the unintended and/or unsupported way”.
They should.
Arch wiki states it and there’s no reason (in this case) to assume it won’t work. Furthermore, FWIW, the documentation on uBlue does discuss theming.
Currently, it involves creating your own image :P .
So, as just mentioned, it’s possible. But, it’s definitely more cumbersome than placing it in
/usr/share/themes
.Are you referring to distros like Linux Mint, Pop!_OS and Zorin becoming immutable? While it’s definitely possible that I’ve alluded as such, I can’t recall it. Nor was I able to find it in my earlier writings. Could you explicitly state what you mean by this and when I’ve (at least) hinted at this?
If, by becoming mainstream, you mean that over half of Fedora’s user base will be using them, then yes.
If you meant uBlue images with “other immutable distros”, then I’m fine with this statement. However, if you meant other immutable distros, then I’d like to know which ones you meant. Furthermore, even Fedora’s own images are rarely recommended to new users. Generally, at least from what I’ve seen, Aurora, Bazzite and Bluefin (all three being uBlue image) are mentioned in these conversation. And, IMO, rightfully so.
Sorry. I lost you here. My bad. What’s my point in the context of this discussion?
At least the terminal output makes it very clear that a (soft-)reboot is required. I’ve honestly never seen anyone mention this, i.e. the need to (soft-)reboot for the changes to take effect, as something that leads to confusion. I do understand the frustration that follows from the act of (soft-)rebooting though :P .
Thanks once again for another lovely set of clarifications! Thank you in advance!
Tbh I am not sure anymore if you’re being serious in this discussion or just trolling because I explained some things very clearly but you still misunderstand them a lot. I’m not willing to continue this. I apologize if I’m not right but I have to stay away from trolls and other kinds of evil people.
My apologies for being persistent; I’m just very much saddened that the IMO great conversation abruptly ended when it was so close to resolution. Regardless, this will be my last attempt at engaging in hopes of continuing the earlier conversation. However, full disclosure, if you don’t respond, then I will leave you with a final message in which I will lay out what I got from this conversation and my overall view in regards to how it went etc.
So, without further a due.
I would like to cut the chase and be very direct:
/usr/share/themes
, (soft-)reboot and find the theme in the designated folder. To me, it seems, as if you dismiss this possibility. If this is correct, why do you think that’s the case? Isn’t there more reason to be hopeful considering the mere fact that we’re currently able to apply tons of customization that were previously inconceivable?Unfortunately, you’ve yet to respond. Therefore, I was unable to verify everything mentioned below. Regardless, for the sake of completeness, I would like to give a brief overview of our interaction and how I have perceived it.
My intent regarding this conversation:
However, we weren’t able to get that far. This is IMO primarily due to the following:
The points you actually raised to discredit ‘immutable’ distros:
There is perhaps a lot more I could go over, but I’ll suffice with this for the sake of brevity.