Not to give them any ideas, but an EMP of sufficient power with appropriate shielding on their own equipment? Would that not be a solution here? Can someone explain why this wouldn’t work to me?
EMPs fall off with the square of the distance, there’s a reason the only ones with any kind of regional effect we’ve been able to produce were through the use of nuclear weapons. Even in the event that you had some non-nuclear means to produce them the cost of hardening your own equipment and producing the EMP would be way higher than the cost of the drones, and you’d also be putting a very high value target on the field to be taken out by artillery.
After reading what our current capabilities to produce non-nuclear electromagnetic pulses, all the requirements are basically non-starters. Tho from the limited amount I could find, directional high energy electromagnetic weapons might be an option if you could get it to backpack size and slapped it on a turret. But even that is magical thinking.
Thanks! This sub has not only informed me, but inspired me to read on practical energy weapons too.
Well in a nutshell, communication equipment is supposed to transmit electromagnetic waves to communicate with other equipment. What would “shielding” it mean? Its whole purpose is to send and receive. Preventing electromagnetic waves from getting to it would defeat the whole purpose of a communication device. If you only block most frequencies and leave some frequency open to communicate on, then the drones can use that frequency too. If you flood all frequencies with junk, than there’s no way any communication equipment could work because the signal will be overwhelmed by noise.
Anyone who knows more feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s the basic issue. Either everyone is blind or no one is.
The electronic warfare being used are basically all types of jamming, flooding frequencies with random noise, not really electromagnetic pulses in the sense of using electric waves to induce charges in an object to disable it. Something like that would take an immense amount of power.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m talking about high energy electromagnetic waves to fully just disable by frying. And by shielding I meant faraday cages and hardening. But generally you make good points.
So I guess the real answer would be waveguide or antenna focused high energy electromagnetic weapons. Which aren’t really compact enough for the battlefield, have complicated energy requirements for front line use, and are more theoretical than practical at the scale needed. Plus then you get into aiming at something that fast.
If it hits them, it hits you. Modern tabks rely on alot of electronic equipment, from sights to targeting and other systems. Are you going to shield all of them? How much would the tabk cost? What good is all that shielding if an artillery shell or atgm can take out the tank?
Its probably a question of:
Cost
Blasting your own systems
Blasting your own comms
Can you even hear the whizzing of a drone from inside the tank?
Yea, wasn’t really thinking it through when I posted it. Ahh well, it was just a thought experiment! Good to see Russia is fucked even in my own musings. Lol.
EM captured is proportional to area. An electric grid is big, so it’s easy to fry even from a distance. A drone isn’t really, so you need a ton of power, and:
with appropriate shielding on their own equipment
We’re talking about guys who don’t even use the armour they already have properly, remember. Custom EM shielding for their barely-refurbished 1960s radio or the civilian one they bought from more competent people in China is not really on the table.
Just more jamming is an option, but apparently they have trouble doing even that in a directed enough manner. Also, it’s pretty much certain Ukraine’s drones are getting more and more autonomous.
Large, non-nuclear EMPs mostly use explosives. Covering a large battlefield means you’re essentially bringing a massive, single-use explosive charge to the battlefield, staying uncomfortably close enough to benefit from it, and trying to set it off at exactly the right time, because they’re not reloadable. And your enemy is probably thrilled you’re doing this, because it saves them from hauling their own explosives there. (On that note, why are you sitting on this thing instead of dropping it on the enemy?)
This is in addition to whatever shielding you brought, which is likely bulky and conspicuous. And you’re probably not doing combined arms, because shielding infantry and light vehicles from massive explosions is, it is fair to say, something of an unsolved problem.
But wait, you might be thinking. I know there are non-explosive ways to generate EMPs. Yes, there are, but you need a power source for those, and if you have a really good, portable one of those and a consistent supply of fuel to run it, you probably have better uses for it, like powering a modest laser. Oh, also, you’re 100% sure your shielding works perfectly, right? You’ll find out quick if you don’t.
The microwave thing? I couldn’t even guess, though I personally wouldn’t want to stand next to it even if it works. A big microwave emitter on the battlefield is just asking to catch a HARM.
It really doesn’t seem like anyone knows for sure what to do about drones right now.
Microwaves, especially at higher frequencies like I think those use, also don’t travel terribly well through inclement weather or dust. If I was ever up against one of those things I’d bring a super-soaker full of brine and just try to get it really wet.
They’re also pricey and high tech, and right now Russia can’t even build a non-stupid tank. For a Western military some variant of this might work, maybe using a more moderate frequency from a phased arra, or just lasers. At short range there’s always bullets. Interceptor drones are also bound to be a thing at some point.
Basically, rather than having it’s own radar to track a target, or using IR sensors, it locks on to a target emitting lots of radio noise such as an enemy radar or jammer.
Not to give them any ideas, but an EMP of sufficient power with appropriate shielding on their own equipment? Would that not be a solution here? Can someone explain why this wouldn’t work to me?
EMPs fall off with the square of the distance, there’s a reason the only ones with any kind of regional effect we’ve been able to produce were through the use of nuclear weapons. Even in the event that you had some non-nuclear means to produce them the cost of hardening your own equipment and producing the EMP would be way higher than the cost of the drones, and you’d also be putting a very high value target on the field to be taken out by artillery.
After reading what our current capabilities to produce non-nuclear electromagnetic pulses, all the requirements are basically non-starters. Tho from the limited amount I could find, directional high energy electromagnetic weapons might be an option if you could get it to backpack size and slapped it on a turret. But even that is magical thinking.
Thanks! This sub has not only informed me, but inspired me to read on practical energy weapons too.
Well in a nutshell, communication equipment is supposed to transmit electromagnetic waves to communicate with other equipment. What would “shielding” it mean? Its whole purpose is to send and receive. Preventing electromagnetic waves from getting to it would defeat the whole purpose of a communication device. If you only block most frequencies and leave some frequency open to communicate on, then the drones can use that frequency too. If you flood all frequencies with junk, than there’s no way any communication equipment could work because the signal will be overwhelmed by noise.
Anyone who knows more feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s the basic issue. Either everyone is blind or no one is.
The electronic warfare being used are basically all types of jamming, flooding frequencies with random noise, not really electromagnetic pulses in the sense of using electric waves to induce charges in an object to disable it. Something like that would take an immense amount of power.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m talking about high energy electromagnetic waves to fully just disable by frying. And by shielding I meant faraday cages and hardening. But generally you make good points.
So I guess the real answer would be waveguide or antenna focused high energy electromagnetic weapons. Which aren’t really compact enough for the battlefield, have complicated energy requirements for front line use, and are more theoretical than practical at the scale needed. Plus then you get into aiming at something that fast.
If it hits them, it hits you. Modern tabks rely on alot of electronic equipment, from sights to targeting and other systems. Are you going to shield all of them? How much would the tabk cost? What good is all that shielding if an artillery shell or atgm can take out the tank?
Its probably a question of:
Can you even hear the whizzing of a drone from inside the tank?
Yea, wasn’t really thinking it through when I posted it. Ahh well, it was just a thought experiment! Good to see Russia is fucked even in my own musings. Lol.
EM captured is proportional to area. An electric grid is big, so it’s easy to fry even from a distance. A drone isn’t really, so you need a ton of power, and:
We’re talking about guys who don’t even use the armour they already have properly, remember. Custom EM shielding for their barely-refurbished 1960s radio or the civilian one they bought from more competent people in China is not really on the table.
Just more jamming is an option, but apparently they have trouble doing even that in a directed enough manner. Also, it’s pretty much certain Ukraine’s drones are getting more and more autonomous.
Large, non-nuclear EMPs mostly use explosives. Covering a large battlefield means you’re essentially bringing a massive, single-use explosive charge to the battlefield, staying uncomfortably close enough to benefit from it, and trying to set it off at exactly the right time, because they’re not reloadable. And your enemy is probably thrilled you’re doing this, because it saves them from hauling their own explosives there. (On that note, why are you sitting on this thing instead of dropping it on the enemy?)
This is in addition to whatever shielding you brought, which is likely bulky and conspicuous. And you’re probably not doing combined arms, because shielding infantry and light vehicles from massive explosions is, it is fair to say, something of an unsolved problem.
But wait, you might be thinking. I know there are non-explosive ways to generate EMPs. Yes, there are, but you need a power source for those, and if you have a really good, portable one of those and a consistent supply of fuel to run it, you probably have better uses for it, like powering a modest laser. Oh, also, you’re 100% sure your shielding works perfectly, right? You’ll find out quick if you don’t.
Those are a lot of good points. Even if we’re the more portable types of EMP, the downsides are apparent. And I didn’t even think about lasers.
Does a weapon like CHIMERA stand a better chance at these kinds of drone tactics? I’m just generally curious as to how warfare evolved beyond drones?
The microwave thing? I couldn’t even guess, though I personally wouldn’t want to stand next to it even if it works. A big microwave emitter on the battlefield is just asking to catch a HARM.
It really doesn’t seem like anyone knows for sure what to do about drones right now.
Microwaves, especially at higher frequencies like I think those use, also don’t travel terribly well through inclement weather or dust. If I was ever up against one of those things I’d bring a super-soaker full of brine and just try to get it really wet.
They’re also pricey and high tech, and right now Russia can’t even build a non-stupid tank. For a Western military some variant of this might work, maybe using a more moderate frequency from a phased arra, or just lasers. At short range there’s always bullets. Interceptor drones are also bound to be a thing at some point.
HARM?
H.A.R.M - High-speed Anti Radiation Missile.
Basically, rather than having it’s own radar to track a target, or using IR sensors, it locks on to a target emitting lots of radio noise such as an enemy radar or jammer.