Yea that’s that first bit is exactly the kind of bullshit that gets repeated enough times to make people believe that it’s true but it’s total bullshit just like “just get another job if you don’t like it.” It’s very half-way correct but still missing some major nuance that you admit can be tackled with regulation. I know you’re just repeating a well-worn phrase but it’s entirely rooted in pushing the blame onto individuals to minimize their power.
If the companies can’t afford to give their employees a basic, even somewhat dignified quality of life then that means that the company is not deserving of existence and their leadership is clearly unqualified to handle the situation. If I can’t get more money “just because I want it” then they don’t get to have a company “just because they want it and at the expense of all the people doing the real work”.
Seriously, the very concept of minimum wage is tied to the fact that we do know what a minimum amount to live a dignified life costs. And, just in case, if you plan on saying “but minimum wage wasn’t meant to-“ it was, and it was extremely clear that it was.
If a company will pay you X to do a thing, but someone else will do it for X-1, then that company would be stupid not to do it. It is a race to the bottom cost for the same work. We have to regulate that minimum value. The company holds the cards, and that’s the whole point of unions and collective bargaining. Of course federal rules like minimum wage, OSHA, child labor laws, and so on supercede even that.
Unfortunately our need to work is inelastic: no money from income means no food, clothing, or shelter. This is why I bring up UBI. Then you really COULD set the value below which you would not work, and also you wouldn’t lose the things you need.
As for whether or not companies are deserving, that’s a totally different imaginary moral high ground that has nothing to do with the discussion infortunately. As long as companies provide a good or service people will buy, and enough is bought that profit is higher than cost, then they go on existing even if its exploitative. This is what rules are for.
The proposition of goodness and worth, and rules and methods is up to society by way of law.
I’m struggling to figure out why most of what you’ve written to me is coming off as a disagreement despite us both clearly knowing that regulation and UBI are good solutions. It’s like you’re both sides of the argument without the nuance to connect them and it’s just coming off as difficult to follow. Like, what was your intention with your responses?
Remember, all I know about you and the context that is your opinion is a couple paragraphs and a vague trust that you’re sane based on the support of a social safety net.
I think it is mostly that I disagree with the premise that all work people do is inherently worth much more than corpos pay for it, and every job has high inherent value.
It just isn’t like that. In the real world there are things that need done that basically any warm body can fill. If that is all a person can do, that sucks. It doesn’t make that person less of a person, but it doesn’t mean the work is a high calling. People exist who are not skilled and who are not smart and who are not special.
So here is the crux for me:
We as a society gotta take care of our people. All of them. It is the good and just thing to do. That means everybody gets money and gets to eat and live, and a fair and equitable shake at success and happiness. But it doesn’t make people special and valuable, or put corpos at moral fault for doing corpo stuff, or elevate the importance of stamp kicking, or any of that. I don’t like the kumbayah smoke blowing, but it brings us to the same eventualities I guess.
You lose me when you say that essential workers who do jobs that need less training somehow aren’t creating high value for anyone. Those jobs need to be done, and while a janitor isn’t making a product to be sold that doesn’t mean that without them the company can function properly enough for those do make the product to produce it.
If someone has “taken one for the team” and decided to get into garbage collection then they cannot be reasonably expected to have time to pursue a “higher calling”, and nor should they need to. But imagine if we didn’t have them, or if it paid so poorly that the job couldn’t be done well because frankly no one should put in any good effort for shitty pay. Or how we have culturally decided that, training or no, construction work is something that not very smart people get into. And those people are more likely to have shorter careers dude to the wear and tear on their bodies but their pay does not compensate for that.
A lack of understanding of how indirect value is created, or an inability to consider the fact that someone asked to use up their work hours on something other than a “career” job needs to be able to care for themselves all the same, does not validate poor treatment and a lack of pay.
And oh boy if you want to get into “high calling” nonsense look at the low pay of nurses, family doctors, most architects, junior engineers, etc. It’s all deemed important by the employers to hire someone to do the job and is therefore important enough to pay properly. Just because the degradation of our lives has happened slowly does not make it natural, and no amount of saying “this is the real world” will change that.
—
Minimum wage hasn’t increased in decades in North America. Us in Canada got a bit of a bump but ultimately it’s still lagging way behind. When the idea was introduced as policy we could afford it just fine but now each year inflation increases without our paying keepinng up the extra money just fills a billionaires pockets. It wasn’t long ago that a millionaire was seen as the richest person imaginable and now we have multi-billionaires in only a few decades. The money was there and we agreed that everyone deserved to live with dignity and it’s still here just in the pockets of a handful of people.
—
Oh, and economies are stronger when there are more small transactions compared to only a few big ones. Giving more of the money to individuals is a recipe for success and taking it away from them is how we are where we are. People are valuable and deserve dignity and even if you hate them and think otherwise it’s still got for stable business and strong, robust economy.
Yea that’s that first bit is exactly the kind of bullshit that gets repeated enough times to make people believe that it’s true but it’s total bullshit just like “just get another job if you don’t like it.” It’s very half-way correct but still missing some major nuance that you admit can be tackled with regulation. I know you’re just repeating a well-worn phrase but it’s entirely rooted in pushing the blame onto individuals to minimize their power.
If the companies can’t afford to give their employees a basic, even somewhat dignified quality of life then that means that the company is not deserving of existence and their leadership is clearly unqualified to handle the situation. If I can’t get more money “just because I want it” then they don’t get to have a company “just because they want it and at the expense of all the people doing the real work”.
Seriously, the very concept of minimum wage is tied to the fact that we do know what a minimum amount to live a dignified life costs. And, just in case, if you plan on saying “but minimum wage wasn’t meant to-“ it was, and it was extremely clear that it was.
I’m not repeating anything, this is how it is:
If a company will pay you X to do a thing, but someone else will do it for X-1, then that company would be stupid not to do it. It is a race to the bottom cost for the same work. We have to regulate that minimum value. The company holds the cards, and that’s the whole point of unions and collective bargaining. Of course federal rules like minimum wage, OSHA, child labor laws, and so on supercede even that.
Unfortunately our need to work is inelastic: no money from income means no food, clothing, or shelter. This is why I bring up UBI. Then you really COULD set the value below which you would not work, and also you wouldn’t lose the things you need.
As for whether or not companies are deserving, that’s a totally different imaginary moral high ground that has nothing to do with the discussion infortunately. As long as companies provide a good or service people will buy, and enough is bought that profit is higher than cost, then they go on existing even if its exploitative. This is what rules are for.
The proposition of goodness and worth, and rules and methods is up to society by way of law.
I’m struggling to figure out why most of what you’ve written to me is coming off as a disagreement despite us both clearly knowing that regulation and UBI are good solutions. It’s like you’re both sides of the argument without the nuance to connect them and it’s just coming off as difficult to follow. Like, what was your intention with your responses?
Remember, all I know about you and the context that is your opinion is a couple paragraphs and a vague trust that you’re sane based on the support of a social safety net.
I think it is mostly that I disagree with the premise that all work people do is inherently worth much more than corpos pay for it, and every job has high inherent value.
It just isn’t like that. In the real world there are things that need done that basically any warm body can fill. If that is all a person can do, that sucks. It doesn’t make that person less of a person, but it doesn’t mean the work is a high calling. People exist who are not skilled and who are not smart and who are not special.
So here is the crux for me:
We as a society gotta take care of our people. All of them. It is the good and just thing to do. That means everybody gets money and gets to eat and live, and a fair and equitable shake at success and happiness. But it doesn’t make people special and valuable, or put corpos at moral fault for doing corpo stuff, or elevate the importance of stamp kicking, or any of that. I don’t like the kumbayah smoke blowing, but it brings us to the same eventualities I guess.
You lose me when you say that essential workers who do jobs that need less training somehow aren’t creating high value for anyone. Those jobs need to be done, and while a janitor isn’t making a product to be sold that doesn’t mean that without them the company can function properly enough for those do make the product to produce it.
If someone has “taken one for the team” and decided to get into garbage collection then they cannot be reasonably expected to have time to pursue a “higher calling”, and nor should they need to. But imagine if we didn’t have them, or if it paid so poorly that the job couldn’t be done well because frankly no one should put in any good effort for shitty pay. Or how we have culturally decided that, training or no, construction work is something that not very smart people get into. And those people are more likely to have shorter careers dude to the wear and tear on their bodies but their pay does not compensate for that.
A lack of understanding of how indirect value is created, or an inability to consider the fact that someone asked to use up their work hours on something other than a “career” job needs to be able to care for themselves all the same, does not validate poor treatment and a lack of pay.
And oh boy if you want to get into “high calling” nonsense look at the low pay of nurses, family doctors, most architects, junior engineers, etc. It’s all deemed important by the employers to hire someone to do the job and is therefore important enough to pay properly. Just because the degradation of our lives has happened slowly does not make it natural, and no amount of saying “this is the real world” will change that.
—
Minimum wage hasn’t increased in decades in North America. Us in Canada got a bit of a bump but ultimately it’s still lagging way behind. When the idea was introduced as policy we could afford it just fine but now each year inflation increases without our paying keepinng up the extra money just fills a billionaires pockets. It wasn’t long ago that a millionaire was seen as the richest person imaginable and now we have multi-billionaires in only a few decades. The money was there and we agreed that everyone deserved to live with dignity and it’s still here just in the pockets of a handful of people.
—
Oh, and economies are stronger when there are more small transactions compared to only a few big ones. Giving more of the money to individuals is a recipe for success and taking it away from them is how we are where we are. People are valuable and deserve dignity and even if you hate them and think otherwise it’s still got for stable business and strong, robust economy.