The idea of a timer is that you already do that, so that you’re ready to go when yours comes up.
And I don’t know any GM who won’t give you a break from the timer if the person who went before you changed something huge. Like, if someone summoned a demon, you blew up a bridge, you get some extra time to work out a new turn…
That’s not the point of the timer. The point of a timer is to cut off people taking too much time. As a side effect, people are pre-planning their turns so they don’t get cut off by the timer. The solution is the pre-planning, which does not need a timer, nor is it a guaranteed result of a timer.
There was a problem, and in trying to fix it, the DM created a second problem. The players then found the actual solution to the first problem to avoid the second. The DM then took credit for fixing the problem.
Do you remember that episode where Homer became Mr Burns’ assistant, and was so bad that Mr Burns became more independent so he wouldn’t need Homer’s help? It’s basically like that.
The solution is the pre-planning, which does not need a timer, nor is it a guaranteed result of a timer.
You cannot make players pre-plan. The timer encourages pre-planning, or at least rapid decision making on the fly. Both have the desired result of the game moving at a quicker pace.
It also has the benefit of creating an impartial tool for measuring, instead of relying on subjective “You’re taking a long time.” It is harder to argue with a clock. This is an advantage.
There was a problem, and in trying to fix it, the DM created a second problem.
I don’t really get how my comment is aggressive, since all I did was point out a type of problem GM. There’s a suspiciously defensive reply to it that tries to paint it as aggressive, but I disagree.
Yes, you can make players pre-plan. You nudge them.
The timer encourages speed by penalising a slow, methodical approach. You might avoid the penalty by pre-planning, or you might avoid it by taking a simpler action every time. Both make the game move faster, but one makes the game less fun, especially for players like me who enjoy a good shenanigan.
Why does it matter how much time everyone takes? Outside of an argument that shouldn’t happen in the first place, why would you need to know? Remember that everyone’s moving at a different speed because there’s a timer, so you can only measure post-timer, not pre-.
The GM tried to fix long turns by bringing in a timer. The first problem is the long turns, and the second problem is the timer. Pre-planning solves the problem of there being a timer.
The timer also discourages kinds of interactions or engagement with other players that may actually be welcomed, entertaining, and appreciated. It also takes a significant amount of the responsibility of being a referee off the GM’s shoulders - you know, that thing that they’re actually charged with doing - and turns it over to a clock that they can just use as a cudgle.
It’s the classic toxic nerd shit of turning something that should be a social encounter into a souless mechanical system.
Yes, you can make players pre-plan. You nudge them.
No amount of nudging will make some players do anything. Some players are obstinate and frankly not very good, but honestly the solution to “this player won’t stop looking at their phone and their turns take forever” may be to remove them from the group.
Why does it matter how much time everyone takes?
I don’t want to wait 5 minutes for someone to dither and dither and finally decide “I attack”
Wow that’s an incredibly snobby snobby answer, and I’ll just assume it just came out wrong somehow.
And honestly, I couldn’t agree less. I don’t want to make everyone’s problem that Sally Slowpoke isn’t paying attention or taking a super long time. I want them to fix it themselves.
Poking the next person creates a reliance, and worse, an excuse (“they didn’t poke me, how was I supposed to know?”), putting down a timer makes it clear that the onus is on you. If you didn’t pay attention, that’s your fault.
And I’ll go one further: I think it’s very disrespectful to make everyone wait while you read stuff that you could have read earlier. If you need to check the exact requirements of some obscure spell, sure. But if you need to look up Fireball for the 6th time this game and we all have to wait again while you do it, that’s kind of a dick move.
I run a 30 second timer before you have to start doing stuff. If you’re not finished, that’s fine, but you have to do a thing within 30 seconds. I don’t want everyone waiting because you didn’t prepare, when they all did.
I can fucking tell you run a 30 second timer. This is absolutely the mindset of someone with a 30 second timer.
I find it interesting that you say “the onus is on [the players]” as a benefit, because the main problem you listed for actually talking to them is that they might say you were at fault if you forget. You want it to be that, if anything goes wrong, it’s only because of what other people did. You don’t want to be responsible.
And yet, something did go wrong becaue of your actions. You want everyone to have quick turns, so you set up a timer, and one of your players is using fireball over and over. As if it’s a default action they took due to being rushed. Like I said would happen in the first place.
(Oh, sidenote? Calling someone a snob, then insulting people for being slow or forgetful, is pretty fucking hypocritical)
I can fucking tell you run a 30 second timer. This is absolutely the mindset of someone with a 30 second timer.
You want everyone to have quick turns, so you set up a timer
The timer wasn’t imposed from upon the high seat of the Almighty GM, it’s a thing everyone at the table decided on, because we all want to keep the combat flowing. I know it must look impossible to you, but all the players like taking their turn, and not waiting. Hell, one of the players brings the thing.
one of your players is using fireball over and over. As if it’s a default action they took due to being rushed. Like I said would happen in the first place.
Nobody is “taking Fireball as a default action”. I said nobody wanted to wait for someone to look up a commonly used spell yet again, when you could have done that before, or just made a note or something.
You literally just made this up after ignoring half of my paragraph.
I find it interesting that you say “the onus is on [the players]” as a benefit, because the main problem you listed for actually talking to them is that they might say you were at fault if you forget. You want it to be that, if anything goes wrong, it’s only because of what other people did. You don’t want to be responsible.
You are right that nobody at the table, including me, wants to take the responsibility for someone else paying attention. We’re all adults, and neither our children or parents are at the table. We’re there to play a game, not to constantly remind other adults of what they’re supposed to do.
Also, small detail, it’s a 30 second timer to START. We don’t watching someone do stuff, we mind watching someone look at paper.
I don’t understand why people wanting things to move along upsets you so much? Is a timer such a horrible thing that it actually makes you angry at someone who doesn’t play like you do? I called the reply snobby because you seem to believe we are Doing It Wrong, and that’s an incredibly snobby thing to do.
That is a long fucking comment to ask why someone ELSE cares so much.
If literally everyone at the table wanted a timer in place, is it even necessary? Isn’t everyone already motivated? Or was it a majority vote and there’s a single person you’re not having a very necessary conversation with? Beyond that, who was the one to suggest the timer in the first place?
You said they looked up fireball 6 times in a session. Maybe you were being hyperbolic, which would weaken your argument. If not, then they must use that spell a lot to need to look it up so much. And given it’s a simple spell, they must be double-checking the numbers, so they have something in mind for it.
Your biggest benefit to a timer, and your biggest flaw with a nudge, were both about being responsible for the game running smoothly. You’re the GM. That’s your responsibility. It’s everyone’s, but the GM is afforded greater power by their position, and with great power…
Yeah, that is a small detail. It’s very small. Insignificant, even.
You said the timer fixed the problem. I corrected you, pointing out the timer only prompted the actual fix for the problem, and that’s not guaranteed for every table. You called me a snob. I don’t feel that upset about it.
The idea of a timer is that you already do that, so that you’re ready to go when yours comes up.
And I don’t know any GM who won’t give you a break from the timer if the person who went before you changed something huge. Like, if someone summoned a demon, you blew up a bridge, you get some extra time to work out a new turn…
That’s not the point of the timer. The point of a timer is to cut off people taking too much time. As a side effect, people are pre-planning their turns so they don’t get cut off by the timer. The solution is the pre-planning, which does not need a timer, nor is it a guaranteed result of a timer.
There was a problem, and in trying to fix it, the DM created a second problem. The players then found the actual solution to the first problem to avoid the second. The DM then took credit for fixing the problem.
Do you remember that episode where Homer became Mr Burns’ assistant, and was so bad that Mr Burns became more independent so he wouldn’t need Homer’s help? It’s basically like that.
This was a weirdly aggressive comment.
You cannot make players pre-plan. The timer encourages pre-planning, or at least rapid decision making on the fly. Both have the desired result of the game moving at a quicker pace.
It also has the benefit of creating an impartial tool for measuring, instead of relying on subjective “You’re taking a long time.” It is harder to argue with a clock. This is an advantage.
What is the second problem?
I don’t really get how my comment is aggressive, since all I did was point out a type of problem GM. There’s a suspiciously defensive reply to it that tries to paint it as aggressive, but I disagree.
Yes, you can make players pre-plan. You nudge them.
The timer encourages speed by penalising a slow, methodical approach. You might avoid the penalty by pre-planning, or you might avoid it by taking a simpler action every time. Both make the game move faster, but one makes the game less fun, especially for players like me who enjoy a good shenanigan.
Why does it matter how much time everyone takes? Outside of an argument that shouldn’t happen in the first place, why would you need to know? Remember that everyone’s moving at a different speed because there’s a timer, so you can only measure post-timer, not pre-.
The GM tried to fix long turns by bringing in a timer. The first problem is the long turns, and the second problem is the timer. Pre-planning solves the problem of there being a timer.
The timer also discourages kinds of interactions or engagement with other players that may actually be welcomed, entertaining, and appreciated. It also takes a significant amount of the responsibility of being a referee off the GM’s shoulders - you know, that thing that they’re actually charged with doing - and turns it over to a clock that they can just use as a cudgle.
It’s the classic toxic nerd shit of turning something that should be a social encounter into a souless mechanical system.
No amount of nudging will make some players do anything. Some players are obstinate and frankly not very good, but honestly the solution to “this player won’t stop looking at their phone and their turns take forever” may be to remove them from the group.
I don’t want to wait 5 minutes for someone to dither and dither and finally decide “I attack”
Wow that’s an incredibly snobby snobby answer, and I’ll just assume it just came out wrong somehow.
And honestly, I couldn’t agree less. I don’t want to make everyone’s problem that Sally Slowpoke isn’t paying attention or taking a super long time. I want them to fix it themselves.
Poking the next person creates a reliance, and worse, an excuse (“they didn’t poke me, how was I supposed to know?”), putting down a timer makes it clear that the onus is on you. If you didn’t pay attention, that’s your fault.
And I’ll go one further: I think it’s very disrespectful to make everyone wait while you read stuff that you could have read earlier. If you need to check the exact requirements of some obscure spell, sure. But if you need to look up Fireball for the 6th time this game and we all have to wait again while you do it, that’s kind of a dick move.
I run a 30 second timer before you have to start doing stuff. If you’re not finished, that’s fine, but you have to do a thing within 30 seconds. I don’t want everyone waiting because you didn’t prepare, when they all did.
I can fucking tell you run a 30 second timer. This is absolutely the mindset of someone with a 30 second timer.
I find it interesting that you say “the onus is on [the players]” as a benefit, because the main problem you listed for actually talking to them is that they might say you were at fault if you forget. You want it to be that, if anything goes wrong, it’s only because of what other people did. You don’t want to be responsible.
And yet, something did go wrong becaue of your actions. You want everyone to have quick turns, so you set up a timer, and one of your players is using fireball over and over. As if it’s a default action they took due to being rushed. Like I said would happen in the first place.
(Oh, sidenote? Calling someone a snob, then insulting people for being slow or forgetful, is pretty fucking hypocritical)
You’re… Reading a lot of things I never said.
The timer wasn’t imposed from upon the high seat of the Almighty GM, it’s a thing everyone at the table decided on, because we all want to keep the combat flowing. I know it must look impossible to you, but all the players like taking their turn, and not waiting. Hell, one of the players brings the thing.
Nobody is “taking Fireball as a default action”. I said nobody wanted to wait for someone to look up a commonly used spell yet again, when you could have done that before, or just made a note or something. You literally just made this up after ignoring half of my paragraph.
You are right that nobody at the table, including me, wants to take the responsibility for someone else paying attention. We’re all adults, and neither our children or parents are at the table. We’re there to play a game, not to constantly remind other adults of what they’re supposed to do.
Also, small detail, it’s a 30 second timer to START. We don’t watching someone do stuff, we mind watching someone look at paper.
I don’t understand why people wanting things to move along upsets you so much? Is a timer such a horrible thing that it actually makes you angry at someone who doesn’t play like you do? I called the reply snobby because you seem to believe we are Doing It Wrong, and that’s an incredibly snobby thing to do.
That is a long fucking comment to ask why someone ELSE cares so much.
If literally everyone at the table wanted a timer in place, is it even necessary? Isn’t everyone already motivated? Or was it a majority vote and there’s a single person you’re not having a very necessary conversation with? Beyond that, who was the one to suggest the timer in the first place?
You said they looked up fireball 6 times in a session. Maybe you were being hyperbolic, which would weaken your argument. If not, then they must use that spell a lot to need to look it up so much. And given it’s a simple spell, they must be double-checking the numbers, so they have something in mind for it.
Your biggest benefit to a timer, and your biggest flaw with a nudge, were both about being responsible for the game running smoothly. You’re the GM. That’s your responsibility. It’s everyone’s, but the GM is afforded greater power by their position, and with great power…
Yeah, that is a small detail. It’s very small. Insignificant, even.
You said the timer fixed the problem. I corrected you, pointing out the timer only prompted the actual fix for the problem, and that’s not guaranteed for every table. You called me a snob. I don’t feel that upset about it.