This was pretty fun and surprisingly wholesome even for him. He went into a town hall event that was like 70% hard MAGA people wearing red hats and Trump shirts. He talked to them as people and made fun of himself. He even wore the Trump hat and posed for pictures with the MAGA kids https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXOS8rYWgAAXW2s?format=jpg&name=900x900

Everyone seemed to be having a good time. The president did his best to entertain, and show people with a narrow worldview that there’s humans on the other side too.

The story of that red Trump hat he is wearing in the pic is that he traded it. He gave a MAGA guy a unique Biden presidential hat signed by him, the fancy WH ones they make specifically for the president to wear. In return, Biden demanded the red hat from that guy’s head as a trophy. Then they shook hands.

We don’t live in a perfect world. Someone is going to be president for the next 4 years, and at this stage of the game we have 2 distinct choices.

Also, what you called half-assed someone else might call the democracy process. Just because YOU want something doesn’t mean I want the same thing. Your vision for how to solve Palestine or Ukraine or improve wealth equality might be vastly different from mine. Just because you don’t get exactly what you want doesn’t mean the system is useless or not worth participating in. If you were to get exactly what you want, then I’d be getting walked over. If I get exactly what I want, then you’d say you are not being heard.

The only fair system is to elect a big-tent party and then work through dialog on trying to reach either consensus or fair compromise on the various topics. But we won’t have that option if we let the fascists get control and do their Project 2025 thing while ignoring us.

Here is another take. You vote for both:

1. The group that most closely resembles what you want AND
2. The group that most likely will listen to your requests during the administration

If there are things you want changed, Nov 5 is not the last day but the beginning. The next president will make decisions for 4 years, and every decision is influenced by people and our voices.

Ask yourself, between Harris and Trump, which administration is most likely to want the things I want, and which is most likely to listen and be influenced by my side of political views and the people I support?

For me, the answer is a hard NO on Trump, and a pretty solid Yes on Harris.

Like the other thread abut guns. Sure, the Dems talk about wanting gun reform and it never gets done because they don’t have a super majority in Congress. But the GOP is 100% against it and will never contribute. Which side is more likely to do anything to help the reform I want to see? 4 years of Dems is a good amount of time to press for issues and seek some improvements. If I let the GOP have 4 more years, we are not even going to talk about change until the next election.

Those that are willing to sit out an election because the Dems are not perfect, are inflicting the worst candidate on all of us and themselves. Don’t you dare later complain about school shootings, wealth inequality, tax cuts for the rich, abuse of queer folks, women’s rights, international inhumane policy. Don’t inflict Trump on us and then pretend to care about our issues or be on our side. If you sit out, you’ve picked a side.

No. Half of what you wrote is disconnected from what I’m saying. So let’s reset.

The present: Israel lives with a terrorist group next door that is constantly launching rockets at them and planning and executing genocide on the people of Israel. That needs to be addressed. Israel is sick of it and they decided to remove Hamas.

The US weapon guardrails are mainly to define what an appropriate use of each weapon type would be. Lots of the weapons provided to Israel are not allowed for use in Gaza due to the type of damage they cause deemed incompatible with the type of conflict. If the US pulled out of these weapon deals, all the weapons (bombs) that are currently banned would be on the menu to Israel. If you think Gaza is taking damage now, consider that the damage so far has been hampered through limitations imposed by the West.

The US supports protecting civilians, ending terrorism, and finding a permanent solution to this eternal animosity. We are the ones imposing limitations on war actions and weapons, and forcing in food convoys.

The fastest route is to end the Hamas rule as quickly as possible and transition to rebuilding Gaza and establishing Palestinian statehood. That’s what the US is currently working on. I have not seen anyone here propose a solution that would move faster towards enduring peace.

Whether people here are informed enough to recognize it, we are currently on the best path available towards progress in these centuries-old conflicts in the Middle East. The other half-baked low-information ideas proposed in this forum are not better than what the US is doing right now. “Just stop selling them weapons” is not only not going to work, it’s a dumb idea that would make things worse.

The future: Low information actors like the people in this forum are at fault for the situation that we are in now. These conflicts started long ago, and we prevented a resolution and made them worse with the naive calls to cease intervention. Hamas took control in the the 2000s because of people like you naively helping them on.

The only way to have a better future is to stop kicking the can down the road. And the US is not direct party to this conflict, so we can’t unilaterally do anything to change it. Again, backing out of weapons agreements would only make Israel bomb Gaza twice as hard, and then invite a larger war in the region.

You think our difference is that I’m ok with forgiving a little “genocide” from my elected officials. NO. I’m old enough to have been through several cycles of this Israel v terrorism crap. Hamas is mostly at fault for our current state of affairs, and I understand these issues enough to recognize that my elected officials are working on the best available course of action given the impossible nature of this type of eternal hate and genocidal intent from all parties towards each other in the Middle East.

You “stop the weapons” guys want some magical way to do better, save more lives and end conflicts faster. But when asked what’s the plan, we get crickets. “Just get Israel to stop and back off” is exactly how we ended up with Hamas terrorizing Gaza this century and using civilians as shields - learn the history circa 2005-7.

Today, the real plan is political, hard and messy. The “no weapons” plan has no merit, no future, and will only makes things worse. That’s why the current admin doesn’t spend much time taking advice from tiktok-tier ideas.

I want my US elected officials to protect civilians and seek to end the eternal wars in that region. That’s why I want them to ignore the no-plan ideas, and continue with the difficult work they are already doing to try to find a real and sustainable solution.

Yes, I trust Harris with the next 4 years of this situation way more than I’d trust this low-information forum. I don’t see Harris as “the better of 2 bad choices,” I see Harris as having a real plan that makes sense and is way better than any low-info ideas I’ve read here.

Also, in case the nuance is getting lost since we don’t all get our information from the same sources,

When the US sells weapons to Israel, the purpose is to ensure peace in the region by helping them hold a line of defense against military attacks from antagonistic countries; and in the case of Hamas, for the anti-terrorism operation of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, so that Palestinians can pursue self-determination free from terrorist rule.

Also, because around these parts the echo chambers are deafening,

https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/

Most Americans are against the suffering of civilians in Gaza, but understand that under Hamas rule the Gaza people are screwed, and long-lasting peace is impossible, so there’s significant value in removing Hamas from power so that we can drive towards a better future. This is the purpose for which we continue to sell any weapons to Israel that may be used in the Gaza operation, and we use the agreements to enforce guardrails to minimize civilian casualties.

In summary, If you think the Biden admin is supporting genocide, I wanted to point out that as far as the US leadership understands it, the weapons sales are intended for the purpose of driving towards peace, minimizing civilian casualties, and improving conditions for people in the region in the long-term. Whether you agree with that vision or not.

What’s unclear is the alternative long-term solution that the “stop supporting Israel” crowd have mapped out for the region. What exactly is supposed to get better if the US pulls out and washes its hands of peace deals and weapons agreements, so that Israel and Hamas can double down on bombing each other to the last drop of blood?

Someone explain to me the 10 year plan that the “stop selling weapons” side has envisions for the Gaza region. Because I know Harris wants to end the war, rebuild Gaza, and force a permanent peace by leading international negotiations for Palestinian statehood. I cannot imagine a workable pathway that’s more pro peace and pro civilians.

cutting off aid money and weapons sales

I don’t understand this line of thinking.

First, Israel doesn’t need top-tier modern weapons to attack a defenseless civilian population. If Israel’s goal was outright genocide as it’s being put, they could buy mid-tier weapons from any manufacturer for that purpose.

Second, if the US stops selling US-grade weapons to Israel, that will signal to the region that Israel is open to military attacks, which might result in a larger scale multi-country war that would dwarf the Gaza conflict.

Those that care about the lives of innocent civilians in the region should prefer that the weapons sold to Israel come with Western strings attached and conditions as part of the weapons agreements, and should also care that the region doesn’t descend into another 1960s-70s war era but with more modern and powerful weapons.

See on US weapons:

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-12-11/israel-must-comply-with-laws-of-war-under-us-weapons-assistance-policy

The U.S. expects every country receiving its military assistance to use it “in full compliance with international humanitarian law and the laws of war, and Israel is no exception,” State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller told a news briefing on Monday.

Enforcing the Western weapons rules is politically complex, but not having any rules on those weapons would only embolden Israel’s operation in Gaza. I hope people around here will come to understand that every time you call for the US to pull out of weapon deals in Israel, what you are advocating for is to remove the weapons restrictions the West imposes on Israel.

It seems like we are talking about different things.

Also,

What you want to do is to flip the narrative by remaining calm, focusing on the facts, and pointing out the flaws in your opponents arguments.

We know with well-tested confidence that that does nothing for half the electorate.

I’m talking about controlling the narrative a bit more. Dems are masters at speaking ineffectively and letting the media decide the narrative. And the media spends half its time reacting to whatever outlandish thing Trump said. And Trump says the outlandish stuff on purpose to control the narrative.

So 80% of the time we are in this cycle: Trump says something insane on purpose -> media reports it like it’s half presidential and worth talking about -> Dems are asked to comment on it -> Dems try to ignore it or reply something sensible that gets buried.

The effect is this: Trump controls the narrative -> the whorish media is happy to repeat his BS and normalize him for clicks -> whatever Dems want to talk about doesn’t matter. Low effort voters see Trump and his message everywhere courtesy of the whorish media. Trump remains a viable candidate.

I’m proposing that Dems could try to join the cycle at the input level instead of the tail end. If they say some aggressive or outlandish things about Trump, they’d be trend setters at the start of the cycle instead of irrelevant at the end of it. Like what happened with the “weird” thing, when seemingly by accident the Dems landed one narrative origination that left Trump on the receiving end unable to shake it.

My point is that this shouldn’t happen by accident. The Dems should plan it as part of narrative control. Keep a schedule and say another big thing once per week. Give the media something big to talk about, keep an aggressive message on Trump and his prosecutions, crimes, terrible policies and so on. Anything that controls the narrative, puts Trump on the defensive, and makes the media spread the Dems message instead of giving Trump free publicity.

When the Dems choose not to do this, they are letting the media decide what narrative they want and the media will always prefer to go with sensationalized BS as much as possible, which usually means going over to Trump to say something insane so they have more fodder to normalize and talk about for clicks.

I think that’s a good point. I wonder if reasonable politicians should prepare a few outlandish talking points to give the media something tasty to sink their teeth into. Like do a normal interview saying normal thoughtful and nuanced things, but also throw in a couple specific wacky clickbait nuggets so the media has what they crave for their news cycle.

Like, what if Kamala had worked this into her interview: Once his criminal trials are over, I don’t think imprisonment in Attica would be appropriate for Trump as an ex president.

Leave it at that and have the media frenzy over it, even though it means nothing. Then they won’t spend as much time trying to invent drama over her interview because she gave them some drama to go with.

I think that’s what Trump is best at. Trump knows most of his base are dumb and the media are thirsty clickbait whores, so he treats his interviews with the decorum of a 2-bit bordello and ends up getting tons of attention that works for his base.

Brazille was working for CNN at the time of Clinton, not ABC.

Harris is negotiating the rules of a debate she hadn’t agreed to yet since she wasn’t running for president at the time the debate was agreed to by BIDEN. Trump is also negotiating terms. Seems fair to me that they both get to negotiate for whatever they want before agreeing to final terms.

do a debate on a Conservative network

Conservative news network? WHERE? All I see on the right-wing are garbage propaganda outlets. Why would anyone serious agree to a debate at a propaganda outlet?

A debate has to happen on a real news network like ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR, AP, Reuters, CNBC or something of the like, or hosted by a neutral university or some other serious institution. The point is to try to have less BS, not more.

And I agree, if the DNC operative Brazille gave one candidate the questions ahead and not the other, that’s a major issue and she is right to be shamed for it and have been removed by CNN. Nobody wants to see that favoritism crap, which is also the reason we can’t have the debate at Fox or any other trash-tier outlet either.

There’s also politicking involved. Trump is currently losing this election, so he should be more desperate to get a debate going even if he is most likely to do poorly. From a politics perspective, the Harris campaign is right to press Trump and push the rules to make him as uncomfortable as possible. Trump can back out if he wants, but he is the one that needs the debate the most. That’s just how politics works. If Trump was ahead he could simply avoid the debate and run a telethon by himself like he’s done in the past when he refused to participate, in the same vein of political gamesmanship. It’s only fair that when Harris is on top she gets to be the gamester. That’s Trump’s lack of decorum coming back to roost. Those that lead with being dicks get mirrored treatment when the tables turn.

Makes sense. Trump’s mother was naturalized as an American citizen in 1942, and D. Trump was born in 1946, and by then his mother already called herself American. That would make her first-gen naturalized American in the eyes of the census, and D. Trump second gen given that he was born to a naturalized immigrant.

Technicalities aside, Donald Trump was born in America to a person that just a few years earlier called herself Scottish. He should certainly know about the prevalence of immigration in America, between his own Scottish and German background, and marrying immigrants himself.

Trump is actually second-gen on his mother’s side

Trump’s mother was born in Scotland. She was a Scottish immigrant and her son is first-generation Scottish-American on her side.

For a presidential ticket https://votevets.org/press-releases/votevets-makes-historic-first-ever-endorsement-for-president

WASHINGTON, DC—For the first time in the group’s nearly 20-year history, VoteVets is making an endorsement in the presidential general election, backing the Harris-Walz ticket in 2024. Tim Walz is a National Guard Veteran, and the group only endorses Veterans, national security professionals, and military family members.

The group will immediately begin fundraising for the ticket, mobilizing its over 1.5 million supporter list.

“The Harris-Walz ticket will defend America and our Veterans,” the group said in a statement. “Vice President Harris already was the best choice for America in this election, but the addition of Governor Walz will supercharge this ticket, and we’re proud to back it.”

The camo thing is a reference to the real mid west. Mid westerners were known for being polite, rugged, and minding their own business, while having that small-town sense of being neighborly. Then the GOP spent years co-opting that small-town blue-collar message with their hate mongering, vitriol, anti-American message and a pro-corporation agenda. The real mid west are people that are more in line with Walz than they are with Trump. People that want to respect individual freedoms and elect officials that support blue collar workers, real American patriotism, and doing right by the American people instead of corporations or billionaire criminals.

The camo thing with Walz is about reclaiming blue-collar mid-west American pride. People that are sick of a NY trust-fund baby that lives in a golden skyscraper telling them he is their voice, when people like Walz are literally mid western blue collar representation from someone that served in the armed forces, worked as a teacher, and has cemented his place in politics by earning the respect of his constituents. Walz stands for real support of the troops, responsible gun ownership, worker rights, supporting American communities, freedom, and minding your own business. The people that are into camo hats should be into Walz, not that MAGA bullshit.

The dog appears to be a celebrity fortune teller: “Babydog says we’ll retain the house, the majority in the House. We’re going to flip the United States Senate overwhelmingly. We’re going to elect Donald J. Trump and JD Vance in November.”

https://www.newsweek.com/babydog-jim-justice-bulldog-west-virginia-rnc-elections-1926628

The FBI communicated recently saying they reviewed the (registered Republican) shooter’s online logs and found a deep and disturbing history of political commentary on the side of hardcore anti-immigration. Those are the facts.

I’ll be happy to consider whatever actually happened that day. Let’s see an actual investigation explain to us what happened that day, instead of just taking the Trump’s campaign word for it. You might be contented with the first opinion and propaganda spins that came out from that day, but I want to see what the official investigators think happened, and so far it’s not looking consistent.

I have enough patience to wait for evidence and facts, and so far it’s very hard to explain the storyline as told by Trump’s campaign. The Secret Service say they can’t justify what happened, the FBI says the whole thing is fishy, the shooter is a Republican without a known motive, Trump wasn’t hurt. That’s what’s on the docket up to this point. I’ll give it another beat for the rest of the investigation to advance.

Can we take 3 minutes to simply review what happened? Republican hardcore enthusiast shows up to a Trump rally, takes up an obvious sniper position unimpeded by the Secret Service, and is allowed to shoot the teleprompter. Trump, who is fine and left without a scar, claims he is a martyr and “took a bullet” for America, expecting a surge for his campaign.

Those are the facts. The FBI themselves say they can’t corroborate Trump’s versions of the events and can’t explain the story from the angle of “shooter there to kill Trump.” Are we sure that the known facts point to “assassination attempt” as the only possible conclusion of what happened that day?

It would make a big difference if the investigation ultimately reveals that the shooter wasn’t trying to hurt Trump.

deleted by creator

It’s easy to feel adrift in the sea of nonsense we’ve had to deal with the last few years. Let me recap some important developments:

Trump is easily the most hated man in America and possibly the world. He is a convicted felon on 34 counts, and the only reason he is not convicted of several other things is that Republicans are doing their darnest to jam the wheels of justice at least until the election. He is credibly accused and expected to lose trials on election interfering in Georgia, and the theft of classified documents, at the minimum. He is likely to be given severe prison sentences next year, after he loses the election and continues suffering the long list of legal troubles ahead of him.

In 2020, Trump lost by 7 million votes, and has only become more hated since then. His base shrinks by the minute and it has for a while. The number of people that call themselves “Republican” is at a generational low, not because the country has that many fewer conservatives but because so many people are done with MAGA and the Trump circus and no longer feel represented.

Do not go by polls or by mainstream media “reporting” on how Trump is doing in terms of the campaign. Polls have been a mess since the Trump era and they are far from accurate, and these days the MAGAs do everything in their power to appear as loud and supported because they know they are decidedly a minority in this country. During the GOP primaries, Nikki Haley was getting a third of the vote even after she had already abandoned the race, and that was Republicans showing up to vote against Trump for anyone, even a candidate that wasn’t running.

To recap, Republicans are a political minority in this country, and Trump doesn’t even have the support of all Republicans. No progressive would consider voting for the GOP in the current state, so all the GOP can draw votes from is their minority base, which is also splintered because of how many of their own people have grown to hate Trump and the disgusting MAGA politics.

Trump’s path to winning is to whip up every single voter he still has in a frenzy, and otherwise try to get most of the country to FEEL apathetic and defeated and stay home. Because if we all had our say on even terms, Trump and the GOP in general are going to get thoroughly rebuked by the overwhelming majority of the country that is done with their shit.

The MAGA have a vested interest in making it seem that they are proud and many. The media lets Trump get away with lies and publicity stunts because they are lazy, entangled in corporate interests, and they want the views. The reasonable people in politics don’t say clownish BS and spew vitriol, so they don’t make the big headlines. So Trump shows up everywhere in politics and that makes him look larger. The MAGAs are the only ones excited to pick up the phone when a pollster calls.

There are severe consequences for the kind of dirty, disgusting “politics” from MAGA and the GOP. They are holding on for dear life with the fraction of the electorate they still hold, and they only hold those people through malicious propaganda, by lying, misrepresenting the issues, aggrandizing single-issue voting, and keeping their base irrationally angry and hateful. And through gerrymandering and voter suppression and every dirty tactic they can muster.

The GOP is on a death spiral. MAGA has almost fully destroyed the party from within. The last few years have had deep and lethal consequences for organized conservative politics. They will not recover from this without a severe reckoning.

We just need to keep our heads cool and up, keep asking for a better quality of discourse and politicians, and vote that in when we are given the chance. Those of us that want a better country with better people at the helm are a large majority. Where we stand today, we’re more likely to send Kamala in with a blue wave than we are to having to suffer Trump again. And we need a blue wave to work on repairing the damage from the Trump admin. I’m tired of hearing a Dem president talk about how they want to do more but they don’t have the power in Congress. Let’s fix that too, and then demand performance from our elected officials. We are very close to retracing course back towards an age of reason, if we just trounce this MAGA nonsense hard this cycle.