• mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    Reach.

    Even if it is an Iranian cultural phrase that’s lost in translation into English, it lacks context. You’ve given the Iranian cultural context, but you’re completely ignoring the global context: the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians. Hamas has, quite literally, brought “death to Israel.”

    If something needs context and explanation to not be antisemitic, it’s probably best to not say that thing rather than risk being antisemitic. Otherwise, you’re just demonstrating that you don’t care if you’re sounding antisemitic.

    Peace be with you.

    • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Israel isn’t all Jews, doesn’t represent all Jews, and it’s legit antisemitic to say that it is.

      You are the one sounding antisemitic.

      • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        For the same reason that it was Islamaphobic for the US to invade Iraq, it is antisemitic for you to say “death to Israel” while Hamas is killing Israeli civilians and saying “death to Israel.” We cannot ignore the context of racial/religious tensions and the fact that these nations have racial/religious majorities.

        • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          The state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate, that is the context for the tensions. Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day, and has been long before October 7. Before the European colony arrived, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed in Palestine.

          For the same reason that it was Islamaphobic for the US to invade Iraq, it is antisemitic for you to say “death to Israel”

          This is a bit of a nonsequiter. The US is islamaphobic, and the Iraq invasion was criminal, informed by chauvanism, orientalism, and islamophobia, but it’s hardly the equivalent of an occupied people resisting that occupation.

          May they all be free from the river to the sea someday.

          • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate

            You’re now admitting that Israel is a Jewish state despite trying to claim otherwise for this entire thread.

            Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day

            Two wrongs don’t make a right. Israel is doing horrible things, but it doesn’t deflect from the fact that “death to Israel” is antisemitic.

            Before the European colony arrived, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed in Palestine.

            Well, they aren’t coexisting now. Sorry, can’t go back in time. We solve problems of today because it is impossible to make things the way they once were. And which “European colony” are you referring to? The Jews? I thought this wasn’t about them? Dog whistle.

            the Iraq invasion was … informed by … islamophobia

            But by your own logic, I thought a government is different from the major racial/religious group of its people? We can’t say it was Islamaphobic just because the people there tend to be majority Muslim, right? We’d need other context, like… above.

            hardly the equivalent of an occupied people resisting that occupation

            I never said that Palestine doesn’t have a right to resist its occupation.

            You’ve taken this argument far away from “death to Israel” not being antisemitic because you’re trying to argue that Palestine should exist. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but it doesn’t make you not antisemitic.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate

              You’re now admitting that Israel is a Jewish state despite trying to claim otherwise for this entire thread.

              I’ve only responded to you a couple times, and all I said is that Israel is not all jews, does not speak for all jews, and is a genocidal ethnostate.

              Saying death to an ethnostate does not mean death to the people in it, same as death to america doesn’t literally mean all americans should die.

              This isn’t that hard.

              Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day

              Two wrongs don’t make a right. Israel is doing horrible things, but it doesn’t deflect from the fact that “death to Israel” is antisemitic.

              One of those parties is a colonial occupier, the other an occupied people resisting state violence. I can support one and not the other.

              You’ve taken this argument far away from “death to Israel” not being antisemitic because you’re trying to argue that Palestine should exist. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but it doesn’t make you not antisemitic.

              Death to Israel is not antisemetic, because despite the europeans wrapping it in the trappings of jewishness, it isn’t all jews, doesn’t speak for all jews.

              Israel systematically disenfranchises non-jews and sterilizes non-white jews.

              • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Saying death to an ethnostate does not mean death to the people in it

                It does when civilians are being killed.

                One of those parties is a colonial occupier, the other an occupied people resisting state violence. I can support one and not the other.

                Your support for Palestine doesn’t make “death to Israel” not antisemitic.

                Death to Israel is not antisemetic, because despite the europeans wrapping it in the trappings of jewishness, it isn’t all jews, doesn’t speak for all jews

                Just because Israel doesn’t represent all Jews doesn’t absolve you of antisemitism for wishing death upon Israel. It is majority Jewish, and just above you have stated that the problems are all caused by the “European colony” of Jews. You’re mad at Israel because of those Jews, but not the Jews you like? This was common Nazi apologist rhetoric under Hitler.

                Israel systematically disenfranchises non-jews and sterilizes non-white jews.

                1. The story isn’t as simple as you’ve described it.
                2. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
                • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Fake ass settler state getting defended by the bigger fake ass settler state.

                  Occupied people can resist occupation by any means necessary.

                  • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Occupied people can resist occupation by any means necessary.

                    No. You can’t start killing civilians just because other civilians or their parents or their grandparents or or their racioethnic group or their government have taken land that belonged to you or your family’s ancestry or your racioethnic group or your government.

                • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You’re mad at Israel because of those Jews, but not the Jews you like? This was common Nazi apologist rhetoric under Hitler.

                  I’m mad at Israel because of the genocide it is predicated on.

                  Non white Jews have been sterilized there, it’s got far more in common with the Nazis than any other state besides America

              • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                No, but it does make you a stereotyping asshole, the same kind that might wish death upon a racioethnic group for the actions of a government

    • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      Comparing the hamas attack to the holocaust is like comparing an indigenous people’s raid of settler encampments to the holocaust. It is wildly inappropriate and ignores the difference in power between Jewish people under the nazis and Jewish people in a White Jewish ethnostate

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          This part of the post

          the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

          Makes it sound like you think they’re of similar themes. Theyre not. One was a wholesale slaughter of an oppressed minority, the other was anticolonial violence directed at settlers.

          • mintyfrog@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Both involve the killing of innocent civilians based on their racioethnic group.

            Different scale, motivation, morals, etc? Yes. Still, they give both context to saying “death to Israel” because they prove that the statement is being used in a violent way.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Both involve the killing of innocent civilians based on their racioethnic group

              This is reductionist. You need to wipe away of the context of a white Jewish supremacist apartheid state vs the context of being scapegoats for the nazis for your position to make sense.

              Also settlers aren’t civilians, settlement is part of an extended military campaign of genocide.

              Yes. Still, they give both context to saying “death to Israel” because they prove that the statement is being used in a violent way.

              Violence is justified against settlers, violence isn’t justified against an oppressed ethnic minority. They are distinct things.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Settlers are humans the same way soldiers are humans and the same way civilians are humans.

                  Bad faith nonsense in defense of settler colonialism, how original