I hope everyone had a great week! Hang out. Chat. Talk about what’s going on. Have fun :3

  • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    7 months ago
    Trans Mega, but I terrify you with nonsense

    The only thing I have desired in my adult life is to talk about books I like with people. How hard can that possibly be, right?

    Dante Must Die Mode. It seems like 95% of the time I’d be more productive holding people up at gunpoint and treating it like an interrogation. Sucks to suck; the precious few times I’ve been able to do it, that shit’s like a drug. Please, I beg of you, we can talk about this forever, I have headcanons and fundamental misunderstandings!

    Something that’s been rolling around my head for years now is that, in Nevada by Imogen Binnie Orange Book Bad, there’s this one bit where Maria Griffiths in her narration observes some total bullshit about genderqueer identities, which is not epic and I’m actually gonna cw for transphobia:

    QUOTE

    Not to mention, if you are a total baby panda at Internet communities asking, like, How do I get hormones, Internet trans women are very nice: they will tell you. But when you ask a more complicated question, like say, how do you resolve a genderqueer identity with a female identity when it seems like acknowledging the restraints of female identity and then bursting them doesn’t make you no longer female, just empowered, and therefore is genderqueer a privileged identity that’s mostly available to female-assigned people with punk rock haircuts, in college, everybody gets all butt-hurt and you get in trouble.

    ENDQUOTE

    Wow, I should post literal Nevada quotes online more often. This is fun!!

    Anyway on its face this is stupid for a whole fucking mess of reasons I’m pretty sure, like Orange Book Bad itself references Gender Outlaw once or twice, (slightly dimly, fwiw) and this kind of read is noooot compatible with Bornstein’s read of gender as a class system. Ah yes, a non-cis identity is privileged and only available to one assigned gender…? Fuck off with that. It’s sort-of consistent with Binnie’s short I Met A Girl Named Bat in 2012’s The Collection as well, which uses “both genders” once, maybe just for the sake of being an asshole.

    The thing is, I have constantly wondered if I am missing something, or this is a bit or whatever, like an inside joke.This read feels kind of fucking stupid, but I don’t have any other evidence by which to prove or disprove its shittiness. You can also observe that most people would rightly not bother, and dismiss it as a dogshit take. I’m slightly biased though, if Orange Book Bad is shitty, I desire to know exactly on what level and why.

    Another factor is that someone could crawl out of the woodwork and be like “I lived next to a trans girl who said she was friends with Binnie, its actually a brilliant deliberate example of what an immovably awful person Maria is, Binnie said so” or something like that. I have low knowledge about this specific brainrot subject of books, so that’s a possibility. I only want to understand shit.

    • Cromalin [she/her]@hexbear.netM
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      7 months ago
      i like talking books!

      now i still haven’t read nevada, BUT i do have some knowledge on (some permutations of) this discourse. i could definitely see this being an intentional she’s an asshole thing, but it’s not unheard of for trans women to have problems with this sort of thing. this specifically reads as truscum rhetoric (especially given it sitting right next to “how do i get hormones” which kinda frames hrt and medical transition as the good trans and genderqueer afab people as the bad ones) but even outside truscum spaces there are some transfem people who are very bitter about transmisogyny and lash out at trans people who they see as more privileged (the bitterness isn’t unjustified but obviously taking it out on other trans people like that is) and who are viewed as perpetuating transmisogyny (which many tme people do but like, that doesn’t make them not trans)

      one specific complaint is that these genderqueer afab people are often just seen as women by society at large and therefore don’t have to face the level of transphobia of more binary trans people, especially trans women. ti ve clear this is bullshit, genderqueer identities being seen as just quirky women is itself pretty self evidently transphobia. while i am not entirely unsympathetic to some of the things that lead to this line of thinking (there are obviously some genderqueer people who enact transmisogyny, even if there are obviously way more cis people who do) it is still incredibly harmful and any transmisogyny in tme trans spaces can and must be addressed in ways that do not invalidate other people’s transness. the term “theyfab” (which i don’t like and think is bad) is used by some in this context. sometimes it’s to make a specific point about, for example, spaces that exclude amab trans people but welcome afab trans people (a real problem! still doesn’t justify what feels to me like tacit misgendering) but sometimes it’s just a derogatory way to talk about the group and implicitly deny their transness

      anyways that’s where i feel like this is coming from. obviously cannot promise this is specifically what’s going on, and im very tired so i might be missing something or communicating poorly. lotta discourse, im not an expert, but that’s the vibes i get. hope this was helpful, im going to sleep now so if it wasn’t i can’t help

      • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        7 months ago
        aw yiss!!!

        Yes, that was my instant assumption too. It reads very similarly to “just woman-lite” arguments used against nonbinary people. It’s sickeningly ironic in this case because Orange Book Bad references Bornstein and Serano, it’s how I was introduced to Gender Outlaw and Whipping Girl, so it’s not like the author is unaware? Which, I don’t really desire to CANCEL IMOGEN BINNIE or whatever, the trouble is that Maria Griffiths kind of seems like a self insert in many ways, oops. It blows me away that a binary trans person could see genders outside the binary as being privileged, lol. The main reason I lean away from the theoretical “It’s deliberate, it’s about how Maria is an asshole!” argument is that for pretty much every other bit of blogosphere-quasi-lecturing-narration, Maria says very agreeable stuff and it seems like the reader is meant to agree so Idk.

        Even if it were true that gq afab people were “just seen as women by society” that would not make them exempt from transphobia and discrimination anyway, yes!!! You know what though, Nevada does have a lil passage about spaces that allow afab trans people but not amab:

        God no, Maria says. Are you kidding? How am I going to do that, and how am I going to do that with my junk the way it is, and anyway: bio-cock.

        Piranha spends a lot of her time reading the Internet, so she’s super up on, like, everything. She probably doesn’t go to sex parties, although Maria hasn’t asked. But she’s talked a lot about this thing where there are lesbian sex parties that happen in the city and how they will often have No Bio-Cock Policies, meaning, No Trans Women. Or, optimistically, Trans Women: Keep Your Pants On. Meanwhile trans guys are welcome to brandish whatever cocks they want. Kind of frustrating, kind of problematic, and deeply representative of Maria’s own issues with her junk—even if she’s never actually had a partner who had issues around it. The term bio-cock has become shorthand for the fact that trans women aren’t sexually welcome in any communities anywhere.

        Of course the text is sort of unrelentingly shitty about it, and also I have never heard the term which is probably a gen x thing, so that’s a funny thing. Nevada is not a book that’s kind to other trans people (JUST WAIT TILL YOU HEAR ABOUT ITS TAKES ON TRANS MEN!) and it’s probably the aspect of it I hate the most. This is kinda like the primordial roots of the Bad Discourse that led to TME/TMA being adopted to start!

        Sorry to hear that ur tired (sleep! sleep is good!) but I greatly appreciate the insight, you have connected a few dots in my brain I think. The more I look at this, the less there seems to be plausible deniability - or even if it’s an intentional show of the protagonist being shitty, it’s kind of going too far with it. Like, if the reader was not interested in hearing Maria’s ridiculous stream of consciousness after this, I would not blame them in the slightest. Of course I have brainrot anyway, so shrug-outta-hecks but very good stuff.

        • good_girl [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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          7 months ago
          book talk lets gooooo

          I think this specific issue with Nevada is very emblematic of Imogen Binnie’s brand of trans feminism (at least at the time, I can’t remember if it’s addressed in the second edition’s afterword). The book is very white and very american, and Maria is shown to be relatively privileged. It’s to the point where I don’t fault anyone for not being able to read, enjoy, or relate to it for reasons past the blogpost narration.

          the trouble is that Maria Griffiths kind of seems like a self insert in many ways, oops. It blows me away that a binary trans person could see genders outside the binary as being privileged, lol. The main reason I lean away from the theoretical “It’s deliberate, it’s about how Maria is an asshole!” argument is that for pretty much every other bit of blogosphere-quasi-lecturing-narration, Maria says very agreeable stuff and it seems like the reader is meant to agree so Idk.

          I do kinda get that feeling of Maria being a self-insert in many ways which kinda taints the book a bit. However I also see Maria as a great example of “bad representation” in that while her character embodies some important parts of the trans experience, she’s still a somewhat problematic and messy individual who exemplifies the parts of the trans experience that aren’t spotlighted anywhere else. Whether it’s intentional or not is definitely arguable and it definitely wasn’t necessary to tell the story Imogen Binnie wanted to write, but I think that it could also just a product of the time it was written in.

          Wow, I should post literal Nevada quotes online more often. This is fun!!

          yea

          • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            7 months ago
            ayooooo!!

            Yes indeed, Nevada is a 0 intersectionalism text, which is deeply annoying since it’s half a cultural touchstone. It’s weird too because a few times Maria does point out stuff like say, getting the benefit of the doubt for being tall, white and attractive, but it’s kind of nothing more than lipservice when shit like the above is being said too. I actually dunno how much I could recommend it anymore tbh…

            She works the same job that Imogen Binnie did, the Camp Trans/Michigan Womyns Festival shit is definitely a Binnie thing 'cause iirc she met some Topside writers there irl, I have always considered her to be a mouthpiece. You are right though about the “bad representation” thing, and I think that’s why Nevada has such staying power. (with me, at least, lmao) Maria sucks so bad and I love her, I never get tired of seeing her total all of her relationships and fuck everything up 'cause she’s all messed up and sad niko-tear-wipe the abrasiveness is part of the appeal, right?

            I just kinda feel like the shit she says about genderqueer people and trans men are over the line, from “messy and problematic” to “divisive wrecker”, I guess. I have seen it put people off once or twice, and I’m not convinced the book would not be improved if you just cut this bs about trans men “taking up space from trans women” and whatever.

            Also it’s weird because Nevada being big means that a lot of subsequently influenced trans fiction (Detransition Baby, Tell Me I’m Worthless, Manhunt) lean into the whole, gen-x-transfemme-who-browsed-fictionmania thing a lot, which I think is a bit quaint to most people now. It’s definitely unique!

            yea

            Actually unironically, if I’d known this was gonna go so well I would have aired my grievances with Nevada way sooner. This thread is great & everyone in it is lovely Care-Comrade

            • khizuo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              7 months ago
              my two cents i guess

              as a tme trans person with some passing familiarity in this discourse i don’t feel particularly offended by these kinds of comments because I know that because of transmisogyny i have structural privilege over tma trans people. so a transfemme making a snarky comment about trans men or afab gq people, even if it dips into some unideal “invalidating gender” territory, isn’t nearly on the same level as the violent transmisogyny that gets perpetrated from those groups.

              i’ve yet to read whipping girl which is on my reading list but i think serano discusses the divide between tme/tma trans people a bit too. ultimately i think it’s more important for us tme trans people to deal with transmisogyny in our communities first, because these kinds of comments are just a reaction to the dynamics of unrecognized privilege and violent exclusion in these transmisogynistic trans spaces. idk, just my thoughts though and i don’t want to invalidate your experience with nevada especially as I haven’t read it.

              • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                7 months ago
                lfg!!!

                Hi, I welcome any thoughts on this subject!

                I’m glad at least to see that the quotes aren’t that offensive to their targets, lol. I agree that it’s nothing like the violent transmisogyny we experience, to me I guess it’s about yet more divisive shit in the trans community, and also maybe that anger could be directed at dogshit cis people who commit the vast majority of that violent transmisogyny, instead of our comrades? It seems kind of bastardy to be bitterly invalidating people’s genders instead? Down with cis? Just spitballing, Idk. I don’t disagree with your comment overall, I appreciate the alternate view actually. Doesn’t invalidate my experience :)

                Man I still gotta read Whipping Girl, look at me being a genderlib and not reading theory!

                • good_girl [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  7 months ago
                  more book more book

                  Oh! I just remembered!

                  These last two comments reminded me about a specific part of Whipping Girl that I think can elaborate a bit on the kind of thinking that informed Imogen Binnie and possibly led to these views.

                  In the last chapter of Whipping Girl, Serano touches on the topic of subversivism within the feminist movements of the time (90s to the early 10’s).

                  There’s quite a bit more than what I’ve put below, but I remember feeling conflicted when I first finished this chapter. Obviously today definitions have changed and the idea of political lesbians and genderqueer identities has shifted. I wanted to understand more after finishing the book in regards to this topic but the trans spaces I looked in were severely lacking in even basic transmisogyny discussion, so I had no hope of finding more on it.

                  Passages attached

                  The practice of subversivism also negatively impacts trans people on the MTF spectrum. After all, in our culture, the meanings of “bold,” “rebellious,” and “dangerous”—adjectives that often come to mind when considering subversiveness—are practically built into our understanding of masculinity. In contrast, femininity conjures up antonyms like “timid,” “conventional,” and “safe,” which seem entirely incompatible with subversion. Therefore, despite the fact that the mainstream public tends to be more concerned and disturbed by MTF spectrum trans people than their FTM spectrum counterparts, subversivism creates the impression that trans masculinities are inherently “subversive” and “transgressive,” while their trans feminine counterparts are “lame” and “conservative” in comparison. Subversivism’s privileging of trans masculinities over trans femininities helps to explain why cissexual queer women and FTM spectrum folks tend to dominate the queer/trans community: Their exceptional gender expressions and identities are routinely empowered and encouraged in such settings. In contrast, there is generally a dearth of MTF spectrum folks who regularly inhabit queer/trans spaces.

                  To me, the most surreal part of this whole transgressingversus-reinforcing- gender-norms dialogue in the queer/trans community (and in many gender studies classrooms and books) is the unacknowledged hypocrisy of it all. It is sadly ironic that people who claim to be gender-fucking in the name of “shattering the gender binary,” and who criticize people whose identities fail to adequately challenge our societal notions of femaleness and maleness, cannot see that they have just created a new gender binary, one in which subversive genders are “good” and conservative genders are “bad.” In a sense, this new gender binary isn’t even all that new. It is merely the original oppositional sexist binary flipped upside down. So now, gender- nonconforming folks are on top and gender-normative people are on the bottom —how revolutionary! Now, I understand the temptation for a marginalized group to turn the hierarchy that has oppressed them upside down, as it can feel very empowering to finally be atop the pecking order, but it’s absurd to claim that such approaches in any way undermine that binary. If anything, they only serve to reinforce it further.


                  I believe that if the transgender movement had simply continued to view itself as an alliance of disparate groups working toward a shared goal (like making the world safer for gender-variant folks), it may have avoided such exclusivity while respecting the distinct differences and specific concerns of its various constituents. Instead, by promoting the idea that we must move beyond the supposedly outdated concept of “identity,” the transgender movement has created its own sense of “oneness.” Rather than viewing ourselves as a fragile political coalition of distinct subgroups, some activists instead encourage us to see ourselves as one big homogeneous group of individuals who blur gender boundaries. Rather than learning to respect the very different perspectives and experiences that each transgender subgroup brings to the table, the transgender community has instead become a sort of gender free-for-all, where identities are regularly co-opted by others within the community. These days, many transs*xuals assume that they have the right to appropriate the language of, or speak on behalf of, intersex people; similarly, many cissexual genderqueers feel they have the right to do the same for transs*xuals. This needlessly erases each group’s unique issues, obstacles, and perspectives.

                  This sort of “gender anarchy”—where individuals are free to adopt or appropriate any identity as they please—might seem very limitless and freeing on the surface, but in practice it resembles gender-libertarianism, where those who are most marginalized become even more vulnerable to the whims of those who are more established. In this case, it leaves those of us who are cross-gender-identified susceptible to negation at the hands of the greater cissexual queer community. Indeed, it has become increasingly common for people who are primarily queer because of their sexual orientation to claim a space for themselves within the transgender movement.7 This is particularly true in the queer women’s community, which has become increasingly involved in transgender politics and discourses due to the recent sharp increase in the number of (1) previously lesbian-identified people transitioning to male, (2) dykes who now take on genderqueer or other FTM spectrum identities, and (3) non-trans queer women who seek a voice in the transgender community because they are partnered to FTM spectrum individuals.

                  Because of our history, the fact that cissexual queers now dominate transgender and queer/trans communities and discourses is highly problematic for those of us who are transs*xual.

                  • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                    7 months ago
                    Unending bookposting!

                    Oooooh look at this ✨ holy shit it’s incredible… You know…

                    subversivism creates the impression that trans masculinities are inherently “subversive” and “transgressive,” while their trans feminine counterparts are “lame” and “conservative” in comparison.

                    Now I think about it, Kieran and Maria kind of play this silly dichotomy out exactly, that must be intentional I suppose. But yes, I can see the whole-ass roots of Nevada’s weirdo takes right here, I feel like I put on the shades from They Live glasses-on this is fuckin awesome. Take a shot every time bad actors in the trans community recreate a gender binary. I know what “oppositional sexism” is! Kinda scuffed, again, claiming that non-binary gender identities are “on top”, like even just today I’ve watched a nonbinary person get conversationally trodden upon by binary trans women, what horseshit.

                    I do actually find it kind of fascinating that Serano takes it back to queer unity though, that’s very interesting. But uh

                    These days, many transs*xuals assume that they have the right to appropriate the language of, or speak on behalf of, intersex people; similarly, many cissexual genderqueers feel they have the right to do the same for transs*xuals. This needlessly erases each group’s unique issues, obstacles, and perspectives.

                    What does this mean, lol. Please do not tell me that cissies have been stealing our language behind my back??? I beg of you… “Gender libertarianism” is fucking hilarious though. But this whole thing is fascinating, dang. I have been enlightened, and it turns out the solution was just to read theory all along!!! It almost reads like Maria misread Whipping Girl now, lol

    • bleepbloopbop [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      7 months ago

      I don’t know any of those specific books but I feel the exact same way about talking about books with people. I want to have a non-banal conversation with someone. Anyone. About anything. But they’re vanishingly rare, and usually just about personal experience not about any shared topic like a book or article we both read, because nobody fucking reads anything anymore :(

      • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        7 months ago

        So relatable, part of the issue I think is that forums have died, so where can you go to discuss books? reddit-logo and the gamer chat app. Sucks hard. This extremely fun & enriching example you see is the result of me strivinf and suffering for like three years straight through dead-end conversations and clownish individuals.

        If you haven’t you can always just post about whatever in the megas, or as a post in a comm? It took a little work (lots of posting) but it’s been great posting about say, Unjust Depths on here. I look forward to it every single day.

        • bleepbloopbop [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          7 months ago

          I haven’t had a lot of luck posting here about specific books that aren’t like, super common reads or current book club books, though when I do get a reply its usually good, if a bit short! I honestly just wish anyone IRL would engage with this stuff with me. I like people here but I really want to hear my friends’ thoughts

            • bleepbloopbop [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              7 months ago

              I can talk to friends about the books I’m reading at least! but I can’t even get them to read the same articles as me so we have no common material to work from and I have no sanity check for how I’m reading/interpreting the text :/

              technology delenda est. I used to be the biggest reader I knew when I was a kid, now I’m still one of the biggest but only because everyone else doesn’t have the attention span to read 1 (one) book and I can sometimes burn through one or two when I’m in the right headspace

              • ashinadash [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                7 months ago

                Yeah that’s super fucking annoying, it sucks. One of the reasons I’m so neurotic about weirdbooks is that I can ONLY work from my own frame of reference. I have no way to sanity check myself, or even just to hear alternate views or whatever to expand my understanding. As a result, my takes on certain novels are extremely myopic, like Nevada!! I relish getting to talk with other people who have read the thing ❤

                I never got why it’s like that, I have a lot of computers and whatever and I still read a fair bit, because words on a page are cool. I fuckin love when readable text is presented in paragraphs!

                • bleepbloopbop [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  7 months ago

                  I have a lot of computers and whatever and I still read a fair bit, because words on a page are cool.

                  Amen to that stalin-heart

                  I am finally reading through This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong and its absolutely fascinating and amazingly well written. If anything it’s better at nearly 100 years old than I imagine it was in the 30s