NixOS’ influence and importance at pushing Linux forward into the (previously) unexplored landscape of configuring your complete system through a single config file is undeniable. It’s been a wild ride, but it was well worth it.
And although it has only been relatively recently that it has lost its niche status, the recent influx of so-called ‘immutable’ distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.
However, unfortunately, while this should have been very exciting times for what’s yet to come, the recent drama surrounding the project has definitely tarnished how the project is perceived.
NixOS’ ideas will definitely live on regardless. But how do you envision NixOS’ own future? Any ETA’s for when this drama will end? Which lessons have we learned (so far) from this drama? Are there any winners as a result of this drama? Could something like this happen to any distro?
In case you’re out of the loop. Though, there’s a lot that has transpired since but which hasn’t been rigorously documented at a single place; like how 4 out of 5 NixOS board members have quit over the last 2 months or so.
Thank you. Thank you.
No worries, fam 😉.
I think we very much agree on this. I am actually surprised 😜. Perhaps we (possibly) only ‘disagree’ on the following:
I actually even agree with this. But, and here it comes, you limit the use of ‘immutable systems’ when it comes to regular workspaces to just a subset that complies with “if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else”. However, I’d argue it will soon become the preferred model for most people; simply because I’d argue the net positives dramatically outweigh the (diminishing) net negatives. And this ‘clash’ in perspectives is literally a philosophical/ideological one. Which, I actually tried to allude to in my very first comment. Btw, neither of us is right or wrong; as mentioned earlier, only time will tell.
Alright. So, you prefer to refer to ‘immutable’ distro in the literal sense.
Regarding the status of the read-only (or disabled R/W) root file system, does this have to apply to the complete root file system; i.e. absolute? Or does it suffice if only a select subset of the system is read-only (or disabled R/W)?I wanted to ask this, but later on you made clear that a system does not have to be completely and absolutely immutable for it to be considered immutable; a couple of read-only directories suffices.Furthermore, is it required that an immutable system should remain immutable at all times for it to be considered an immutable system; i.e. changes are not allowed besides ‘hacks’? Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?
Thanks in advance for yet another set of clarifications 😜!
Teaser; the Nix Store, i.e.
/nix/store
, is immutable.Very interesting. So, on Fedora Atomic,
rpm-ostree install <package>
would be considered “disable immutability”. Right? But, this does not apply toflatpak install <package>
. Right?To be clear, new users will most likely experience some issues on Linux for the time being. I don’t think that ‘immutable’ distros are immune to that. Nor do I think they’re particularly more troublesome. If anything, they allow for more stable experiences overall; which you seem to allude to as well.
Idk if it changes anything but in that part of my comment the word “workspace” should’ve been replaced by “workstation”. I guess I chose a wrong word in autocorrect.
I think you have misunderstood my reply a lot. An immutable system is when everything (or almost everything) except for /home is read-only. Idk if my English was an issue there but it looks like you understood that part completely upside down.
Probably. Idk anything about ostree. What I meant is that if you want to manually edit a file anywhere except for /home (or do any manual changes to the system like installing a GTK theme), you have to run a command (I forgot which one) to disable immutability for the directory it’s in (or only for the file; I don’t remember). For new users it can be a problem because it may be hard for them to find a good tutorial that covers all the steps, especially at the start of the “immutability boom” if it’s ever going to happen.
As I just said, more stability means that issues are more stable and hard to solve as well.
Quick reply. Awesome!
Nope, it doesn’t. But thanks for clarifying!
Interesting. Here’s the thing; I am unaware of any so-called ‘immutable distro’ that fits this definition/description/notion/idea/understanding of an immutable system. So…, where do we go from here?
In retrospect, I think you actually did an okay-job at explaining your thoughts. But, yes; I did indeed misunderstand. Thanks for clarifying!
In Fedora Atomic, most of
/usr
is immutable. IIRC, this is even the only directory (combined with the sub-directories found within) that are immutable. However, the commandrpm-ostree install <package>
allows the user to install packages into/usr
. However, this change doesn’t happen during runtime. Instead, a new image/deployment is created with the newly installed package that you can access after a (soft-)reboot (or with--apply-live
if you like to live on the edge).Based on this, does this still apply as “disabling immutability”?
This seems to be based on your own experience. If so, would you be so kind to inform me on which distro this was?
Currently, apart from the documentation provided by uBlue and Guix, there’s definitely a lack of good resources for ‘immutable’ distros. That’s simply a fact. But, thankfully, this is not a problem by design; we just need people that are willing to put in the effort.
Sorry, I’m having a hard time understanding this. Could you perhaps provide an example of this from e.g. Debian? It can be any distro that’s regarded as ‘stable’*.
Unless I’m wrong, you seem to have missed the following. It would be awesome if you could touch upon these as well:
Thanks in advance 😊!
This is enough to cause most of the issues.
Not really because this is a pre-installed tool that doesn’t require any hassle to get working.
It wasn’t my experience. I’ve never tried an immutable distro myself because it goes against my personal preferences and needs. I saw that on YouTube. I don’t remember what distro it was unfortunately but I’m almost sure it was Fedora based. Also in case you didn’t know, GTK themes are usually installed in /usr/share/themes so disabling immutable is required to do so even if /usr is the only thing that’s immutable.
Sure but this excuse won’t help new users and won’t stop them turning away from Linux.
I meant the disadvantages of immutable systems here, not stability in general.
I have no idea what a runtime is so I can’t answer this question.
I use the term “immutable system” because someone can create an immutable fork of BSD or even Windows can become immutable. It’s not just about Linux.
You’re on fire, fam! Thank you for another quick one.
Before moving on, I want to make clear that I should correct some of my earlier statements. It probably doesn’t matter, but for sake of completeness.
What I describe above is not meant for immutable systems, but for ‘immutable’ distros.
I didn’t imply otherwise 😜. I was just explaining how immutability works on Fedora Atomic.
Excellent. I agree. So, “disabling immutability” therefore only applies to ‘hacks’. Right?
Thanks for being transparent! I also appreciate you sticking to your values.
I knew this (and also how
~/.local/share/themes
could be utilized for this). But, fair; this is indeed something that Fedora Atomic’s old model didn’t allow. Or, at best, very ‘hacky’. Like, it’s basically not intended for the end-user to put stuff in here. Fedora Atomic’s new OCI-enabled model does allow this. But, yeah…; we ain’t (necessarily) here to discuss implementations. Fact of the matter and the issue at hand is that traditional distros don’t deal with issues like these. Right?IMO, if a new user wants to use an ‘immutable’ distro, then they should just use one of uBlue’s images. They’re like the Linux Mint or Zorin or Pop!_OS of immutable distros. And, as previously mentioned, uBlue’s documentation is at least sufficient. Traditional Linux distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their Manjaro installation. Similarly, ‘immutable’ distros are not to blame if a new user breaks their not newbie-friendly ‘immutable’ distro.
I think I got you now. Like with the previously mentioned issue with placing themes inside the
/usr/share/themes
directory; on any traditional distro, you’d be free to place it there and you wouldn’t even have noticed a thing. While some 'immutable’ distros, like Fedora Atomic, make this hard. Do you think I understood you correctly?The expression “during runtime” is used to express a running and/or currently in use system. So, if my device is off, then the expression “during runtime” does not apply. When I’m using the system or even if it’s just idling, then the expression “during runtime” does apply. However, it’s possible with Btrfs (and more sophisticated technologies) to create a partition/deployment/image on your disk that’s currently not running nor in use and which has some changes compared to your running system. Then, once again, the expression “during runtime” does not apply.
Perhaps, I could be even more elaborate. So, on the overwhelming majority of ‘immutable’ distros (Guix System and NixOS are literally the exception) that offer a built-in mechanic for installing packages to the immutable base system (like the aforementioned
rpm-ostree
that’s found on Fedora Atomic), the changes are not meant to be applied directly on the running system. So, for example, right afterrpm-ostree install emacs
, I can’t just typeemacs
in a console/terminal and expect it to open. Nor does it appear in the app drawer. Only after the (soft-)reboot will I be able to use Emacs; be it through the console/terminal or find it in the app drawer.So, these are examples of ‘immutable distros’ that are only (meant to be) immutable during runtime, because it’s possible to apply changes to a system that’s not currently running/in-use/idle or whatsoever.
Interesting. Thanks for that clarification.
The crux of this conversation lies here I believe. Your notion/understanding of an immutable system is probably more correct and more in line with what you’d expect from its name. However, the name “‘immutable’ distros” is unfortunately not descriptive. Contrary to what you’d expect, it’s not a distro that happens to be an immutable system; at least, not in the absolute/complete sense.
I agree with you that this is misleading and a poorly chosen name. Heck, Fedora agrees with you; they’ve changed “Fedora Immutable Desktops” to “Fedora Atomic Desktops” because of this. However, as bad as the name is, people use the term “‘immutable’ distros” when talking about Fedora Atomic, Guix System, NixOS, openSUSE MicroOS and Ubuntu Core.
That’s why I said this:
And, to be honest, I’m not sure if you answered the bold question.
Thanks (once again) in advance! And apologies for this long comment 😅.
Idk if everything can br called “hacks” but mostly yea.
I know but idk if GUI apps and extensions can see themes installed in ~/.local and how many installation guides tell about that method.
Idk how it works and how simple it is but gtk that.
Exactly.
But we’re talking about situation when user-friendly distros become immutable. If the user willingly chooses an advanced distro, it’s not the distro’s fault but, for example, you said that Fedora expects their immutable options to become mainstream. I know that Fedora and other immutable distros are often recommended for new users now. This means that the ones that recommend them consider them user-friendly. Imo this, as well as rumors about Canonical want to make Ubuntu Core the default desktop offering, destroys your point in the context of this discussion.
Yes that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate it. And in this case I think my definition of immutability applies to these “runtime-immutable distros” too.
Another (but small) confusion point for new users.
I understand it.
Idk what to answer. Full or partial immutability, it still creates the same issues I described.
Thank you for being patient with me! And thank you for yet another set of clarifications!
I’ve used the term ‘hacks’ a couple of times without properly defining it. My bad. So, I’ve used it in the context of “doing things the unintended and/or unsupported way”.
They should.
Arch wiki states it and there’s no reason (in this case) to assume it won’t work. Furthermore, FWIW, the documentation on uBlue does discuss theming.
Currently, it involves creating your own image :P .
So, as just mentioned, it’s possible. But, it’s definitely more cumbersome than placing it in
/usr/share/themes
.Are you referring to distros like Linux Mint, Pop!_OS and Zorin becoming immutable? While it’s definitely possible that I’ve alluded as such, I can’t recall it. Nor was I able to find it in my earlier writings. Could you explicitly state what you mean by this and when I’ve (at least) hinted at this?
If, by becoming mainstream, you mean that over half of Fedora’s user base will be using them, then yes.
If you meant uBlue images with “other immutable distros”, then I’m fine with this statement. However, if you meant other immutable distros, then I’d like to know which ones you meant. Furthermore, even Fedora’s own images are rarely recommended to new users. Generally, at least from what I’ve seen, Aurora, Bazzite and Bluefin (all three being uBlue image) are mentioned in these conversation. And, IMO, rightfully so.
Sorry. I lost you here. My bad. What’s my point in the context of this discussion?
At least the terminal output makes it very clear that a (soft-)reboot is required. I’ve honestly never seen anyone mention this, i.e. the need to (soft-)reboot for the changes to take effect, as something that leads to confusion. I do understand the frustration that follows from the act of (soft-)rebooting though :P .
Thanks once again for another lovely set of clarifications! Thank you in advance!
Tbh I am not sure anymore if you’re being serious in this discussion or just trolling because I explained some things very clearly but you still misunderstand them a lot. I’m not willing to continue this. I apologize if I’m not right but I have to stay away from trolls and other kinds of evil people.
My apologies for being persistent; I’m just very much saddened that the IMO great conversation abruptly ended when it was so close to resolution. Regardless, this will be my last attempt at engaging in hopes of continuing the earlier conversation. However, full disclosure, if you don’t respond, then I will leave you with a final message in which I will lay out what I got from this conversation and my overall view in regards to how it went etc.
So, without further a due.
I would like to cut the chase and be very direct:
/usr/share/themes
, (soft-)reboot and find the theme in the designated folder. To me, it seems, as if you dismiss this possibility. If this is correct, why do you think that’s the case? Isn’t there more reason to be hopeful considering the mere fact that we’re currently able to apply tons of customization that were previously inconceivable?Unfortunately, you’ve yet to respond. Therefore, I was unable to verify everything mentioned below. Regardless, for the sake of completeness, I would like to give a brief overview of our interaction and how I have perceived it.
My intent regarding this conversation:
However, we weren’t able to get that far. This is IMO primarily due to the following:
The points you actually raised to discredit ‘immutable’ distros:
There is perhaps a lot more I could go over, but I’ll suffice with this for the sake of brevity.