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[rant (with memes!)]
This is a particularly sore spot for me. I was an incel in the 1980s, long before the term incel was coined, and I was odd and a misfit, and fit nicely in this pile…
alleged link << I’m still new to Lemmy-linking.… and my inability to manage my own teenage libido figured into my suicidality then. Society’s failure to do better after another thirty-five years figures into my suicidality now.
To be fair, I suffer from major depression, largely tied into a childhood of neglect (I was a stereotypical latchkey kid) but then since the eighties, US society has required all adults to work full time, and everyone’s parents were exhausted and didn’t have much time or inclination to parent… and it’s only getting progressively worse. So I’m thinking this is intergenerational dysfunction and mental illness. Madness takes its toll.
One of the things that kept me going in my twenties was the hope things would get better for future generations, but instead the US opted for abstinence-only sex ed, which is still (in 2024) mandated in twenty six states, and pushes some really hard Christian stereotypes, e.g. that sex is transactional, men are obligate providers and women have no value other than their virginity and capacity to bear kids (in case you want to know what J. D. Vance’ rhetoric is all about.)
In contrast, only three states (the west coast) mandate comprehensive sex ed, which talks about contraception in a positive way, but it doesn’t (officially) talk about consent, boundaries, the patriarchy, the slut-shaming epidemic and so on. If you’re a teen, an incel, or know one, or otherwise want some serious sex and relating to other humans in a functional way info, check out Planned Parenthood, who has materials (and I believe they’re free). Despite what Jon Kyl said – #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement – Planned Parenthood spends more on their educational materials than they do on abortions, so go get some!
For me, I got lucky. At twenty five, I figured I might be able to recover my way into society, and joined a random AA meeting which had pamphlets about local meetings for other recovery and 12-step meetings. I found my way to CoDependents Anonymous and through a coincidence segued my way into the kink community. In Choke Chuck Palahniuk gets into a slightly different path which is getting into the Sex and Love Addicts community, where peers are slightly too eager to fall off the wagon with each other. This is as dysfunctional as hate-fucking, but hey, we are already truly gone fishing crazy in a society that is also dysfunctional.
Even in the early 1990s, when we were still just trading copypasta on Usenet and Wikipedia was still a WiP, it was clear then it was a bad idea to leave all our young men sexually frustrated, pretend like it’s not a problem and then try to teach them integral calculus. It wasn’t the era of suicide terrorists (lonely, angry young men in the Middle East) and it wasn’t yet the age of rampage shooters (lonely, angry young men in the US). But we did have a run of spree killers, and Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Lonely and sexually frustrated to the last.
To be fair, the US Armed Forces really likes lonely, angry sexually frustrated young men. This is their primary tap for recruits, and until recently, we’ve been fighting the International War on Terror.
And an awful lot of them, especially those who never figure out how to relate to
womenanyone trickle their way into the many alt-right factions, not just incels but the alpha male community, the seduction community, gamergaters, MGTOW, the manosphere, militias, 4Chan/b and so on. Piles and piles of guys (and some gals) who are losers, and they know it. In a shit world that dealt them a shit hand, and do a sine-wave dance between wanting to fade out and wanting to watch the world burn. I know the steps to this jig.Connected ones go into law enforcement.
Essentially, US culture has created this giant pool of Immorten Joe’s war boys, all looking to be witnessed all shiny and chrome into Valhalla. And they are all voting for Trump in 2024 and are eager to join Röhm’s Sturmabteilung as soon as a recruiter tells them to stand back and stand by.
I don’t know what the solution is, and I’ve put a lot of thought into it. The US hates its teens. It seems to be a fixed action pattern (an instinct) to lock our adolescent women up and to evict our adolescent men, once they respectively start showing signs of puberty. I wonder if it’s related to those gorilla species that evict their adolescent females during their first estrus, but then welcome strange females.
Regardless, it’s much the way our administrators side with bullies over their victims when they can (an affect of dominance hierarchy, the thing that drives us to worship athletes and sports stars). In my old age, I wonder if we’re just driven to rationalize obeying instincts rather than recognizing that an advance society sometimes requires non-intuitive solutions.
We need to find a way to actually respect our teens while they’re still in that threshold between cute kid and responsible adult. Just as we need to find a way to actually respect folks that are not simultaneously white, Christian, male and rich enough to have a stock portfolio. If we don’t, it’ll kill us.
In the meantime, Millennials are having few kids, and Zoomers, fewer still. After the anti-abortion thing, they’re just not even bothering to date, and feel undriven to do so since there’s little to no hope for the future.
During the German Reich, when the population rate imploded, they just rounded up pretty young German women who fit the master race mold and required them to serve in the Leibensborn program, as breeding slaves for the Schutzstaffel what inspired Margaret Atwood’s handmaid program in A Handmaid’s Tale. And considering J. D. Vance’s obsession about childless women whether teachers or cat-ladies, this sounds like a thing he’d be happy to spearhead once the Project 2025 agenda sends the US into one-party autocracy.
I suspect there is some undiscovered sociological magic we might be able to use to change the way we interact with power hierarchy and in the meantime give our teens more guidance and less constraint. But if we don’t, it’s a problem that will resolve itself within the next century (more or less). In the meantime, when see Eleanor Rigby or Father McKensie lost and forgotten in their solitude, a check in and a friendly pint (or ice cream cone) might be in order.
[/rant]
I can’t, so I asked Gee Pee Tea to. Howd it do?
Society’s failure to support teens, especially those struggling with loneliness and sexual frustration, has only made things worse over the decades. Abstinence-only sex ed and a culture that neglects young people have contributed to this mess, creating a cycle where exhausted parents can’t provide the guidance teens desperately need.
Lonely, angry young men are often funneled into harmful ideologies or destructive paths. The future looks bleak, with fewer people having kids and growing fears that political movements could exploit this desperation. It’s crucial to find better ways to respect and guide youth before things spiral even further.
It’s pressure on the workforce to over exert that has cost us parents. It’s right-wing ideology that gives us AO education programs, and allow them to focus on teaching that ideology, rather than informing about sex, love and intimacy.
I’m not a psychologist or sociologist, so I am guessing (hypothesizing) that authorities over pubescent adolescents responding to incidents of sexual expression (including flirting, courting, sexting, not just making out † ) has more to do with instincts than what would best serve the teens or the community. But this is consistent with dominance hierarchy and the behavior of other social primates.
Ass I said, I don’t have a societal solution, but we can act locally by acknowledging that everyone, from our disregarded teens to untrained adults are all commonly products of a dysfunctional system that raised dysfunctional kids who are now dysfunctional adults. So yes, cut everyone some slack, including yourself.
† or K-to-9 kids for that matter, who are prone to interest and experimentation, which parents and guardians respond to by freaking out and punishing those kids who are involved.
Quite an oversimplification, but it hit some of the high points. It’s a good little opinion piece, and worth the time, I think.
Oh man, good rant! My comprehension lost track about 1/3 of the way down just past the Choke reference, but I identified with a lot of it and I frequently think of the mentally ill koala comic in my daily life.
The sad truth I’ve found though is that the mentally ill koala comics context is what is used to automatically dismiss that final Twitter reference. -and that’s why mental illness has a stigma. People use it as an excuse to invalidate other people.
As a man, who knows many “men”, I have to say, a lot aren’t being raised… At all.
I was like that, dad left when I was 11 and mom was majorly depressed. Watched a shit ton of YouTube and thankfully found myself on the good side. Around this time there was the war between Logan Paul and the rest of the internet and I watched a lot of commentators call his shit out.
Probably not the best for me, but it did teach the basic morals of “don’t be an asshole”. Most other kids watched Logan/Jake Paul and were insufferable fucks.
To summarize my youth: the only stuff I learned, outside of school, was taught to me by my brothers, in the form of bullying.
I was the youngest.
What I’m most annoyed by is that my dad, a teacher, with a bachelor’s in bookkeeping, taught me exactly nothing about money.
They fed me, and I got older, but I raised myself. I learned how to handle my own finances, and live on my own, because they certainly didn’t help me in that regard, and when I found myself basically on my own at 16, after my parents divorced and I was essentially abandoned, I had to sort my shit out damn fast. It was sink or swim.
Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that, but I’ll tell you this: as a teenager, I had no goddamned idea how to shop for groceries, or cook for myself.
I try not to bitch about it too much because that was more than 20 years ago now. I don’t want to compare my challenges to anyone else.
My entire point is that, I wasn’t taught anything. I figured it out without any help. The difference between a man, and a child who got older, is whether you taught yourself how to be self sufficient, when everyone else decided that you were old enough to know everything you needed to know, when nobody has actually explained anything to you about how to survive, then pushed you out the door… If you experienced that, and you figured it out. Welcome to adulthood, congrats. If you were never in a situation where if you missed a couple of shifts at work, you’d have to sleep under a bridge, then, IDK. Sounds a bit pampered to me.
I relate, kind of.
They feed you and expect you to grow but they didn’t have a plan on how to mautre just a list of don’ts you have to follow.
Do as I say!
Don’t talk back!
Becuase I said so!
Some just wait all the life to be in that position of power and now they are removed from it telling them they are wrong. If you think about it is almost a given they’ll turn to right wing if they promise them the price they were denied…
I hate the mentality of “I had to suffer, so you should have to suffer too!”
And so many of them have that attitude.
It’s just gross
It’s funny that you both place quotation marks around men, showing you don’t believe they are, and yet pretend that you think the fault is in how they’re being raised.
It’s like the dichotomy escapes you. Are they real men raised poorly? Or are they fake men and therefore they’re not the subject of this discussion at all?
I don’t expect you to have any reasonable response though because clearly the misandrist brain rot hit you pretty hard. My condolences. Maybe you should isolate though.
What even is this response?
I was raised. I raised myself.
I see a lot of boys who are so sheltered from the world that they can’t even make hot pockets or do their laundry without someone helping them.
I wanted to be raised by my parents and I was forced to raise myself. I don’t say this to garner any sympathy, because I know I won’t get any. I’m not going to throw myself a pity party because I was left to figure it out.
The only point I’m making, if any at all, is that: school doesn’t prepare you for life. It certainly didn’t prepare me for life… And parents should be teaching their kids how to deal with stuff, and think about their choices so they can make good ones without needing to be told what to do.
I had to figure that out on my own. It’s 100% possible to have a very easy upbringing and be raised right.
I don’t think I need to tell anyone that nobody gives a fuck about how you feel or how much you’re struggling, if you have a dick between your legs, and that demonstrates the problem in society. Boys will “figure it out”.
Most of them don’t, more than a few, never will.
What’s all this shit about being raised? Who raised you?
As a woman, this seems universal to me. Not a gendered issue. More a social issue.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not. Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if “alpha males” stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
same but then I realized I am a woman
Congratulations on your transition 🙏
Same :3
never hated women but yes XD
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Sure buddy
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
Wouldn’t the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
However, I don’t give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn’t change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn’t wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There’s probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn’t even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn’t you were a real oddball.
I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they’re trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don’t conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
I want to see you again after 5 years. /lh
they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
Okay, I have to imagine you’re here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
I was referring to the capitalist class that keeps people divided while they enrich themselves. Also it was primarily men who stopped me from expressing any sort of femininity while women passively agreed.
People in general, gender unrelated, IMHO
Yep. Kinda.
Im hitting 40 and those memes about being thankful for not being a part of the whole dating app weirdness is real. My two friends who are single and my age are sick of dating anyone under 35.
This is such an insightful way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals (“men are bad”). This is one of the few times that men are talked about in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.
I’ve lost the podcast source that talked about “there is no good way to be a man currently”. Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
The best example of good manliness in media I can think of is Bandit from Bluey.
The options are pretty slim if a cartoon dog from a children’s show is humanity’s best example of being a good man.
Tim Walz seems to do it right.
And the speech professor
Uncle Iroh is another one
Idk, I think Aragorn is a great example. As is Samwise.
We, as a society, are still trapped within the “feminist revolution”, there’s fighting going on and no new normal emerged.
Both sides are ripped apart by two often contradicting sets of expectations, the traditional role and the progressive role.
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
And that also reflects on women, to put it extremely bluntly, he’s expected to pay for dinner, but she still wants equal pay. It will take decades to sort all of that out.
It sucks. As a dude, I feel it’s almost impossible to balance being confident and approaching women you don’t know and also not being a creep or bothering them. I’m not the best but not the worst when it comes to looks, I have many friends of different genders (shoutout to my enby fellows who have to deal with this mess and also discrimination) and I’m confident in most things I do aside from dating. It’s gotten to the point I just won’t ask women out due to anxiety over coming across as a creep or bothering them, and instead endure loneliness. Which is not great, but it is what it is.
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don’t really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of “being a strong man” they literally have nothing to live for in society.
Being a good human being is an option for everyone.
And I know this is from a kids cartoon, but Uncle Iroh from Airbender embodies benevolent masculinity pretty well. If we want children and young men to be socialized better, a good place to start is with our media depicting more characters like that.That’s what the post above mine meant by there not being a positive manliness.
Progressive manliness is described as a substraction from the old ideal. We simply have not yet formed a positive, progressive male identity.
yeah, we need to work towards building something that solves this problem sooner rather than later, if you’re a parent now, you should be figuring this out now, and if you want to be a parent, figure it out before you have children.
What?? So when you were a kid ,you just wanted to be a “strong man” when you grew up??
there was nothing i wanted to be when i was growing up. I got the question of “what do you want to do” but there isn’t exactly a good answer to that question and nobody seemed to ever really care either. Things are more focused on education and not being an asshole individually, as opposed to be a socially good person who respects other people.
It should be no wonder that people raised like this turn to figures like andrew tate looking for some semblance of something to focus on.
the reason why strong man is quoted is because if you don’t grow up to be a strong person, as a man or a woman, or whatever in between, you fucking die.
At least that means the routes men take will be more unique
Or they’ll all fall down the Andrew “Sex Trafficker” Tate pipeline instead.
He’s not special. Run of the mill pimp.
I didn’t say he was special, just that his type has an outsized influence on young men.
im sorry sex trafficking isn’t special?
Ugh, in no way am I trying to suggest this is a good man doing acceptable things. I’m trying to suggest he is a bad man doing exploitive things AND that there are many like him that perhaps are less skillful with social media.
yeah, and i don’t think that makes it or him “normal” either. He’s an exceptionally terrible human being. That has managed to be the kingpin of an entire attention economy for years now.
In some regards he is special That’s why Romania is putting him through the ringer, it’s why the extradition might actually happen.
Ok fine, he’s a special pimp.
Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
Bluey.
bluey is great, but it’s only one example in a sea of no ships. It’s also aussie, so it’s not even super culturally relevant to most of the west, it’s also focused at really young children.
Beyond young children you have shows like, full house, which is literally fucking ancient.
This is hilarious because Bluey is a girl
I meant the father from Bluey. What’s his name? Bandit?
Yeah, it’s Bandit. It’s one of those series that you can watch as an adult. It’s great. If they ever stop making it, I’m going to riot.
therapy is a good place to start. men need to want to improve themselves. many don’t. I find this issue to be more prevalent among older generations who are extremely resistant to therapy.
there aren’t role models
What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behaviour.
Robin Williams was always a standup guy, Keanu Reeves seems like a nice guy, Ryan Reynolds seems to be a standup guy (but he has a hard monetary incentive to keep this image), the guys from Cinema Therapy seem to be decent. Do these people count as role models?
What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behavior.
people that are the stereotypical mr rogers of the real world. We really do just need more people that are such good people that just they instill goodness in others on a fundamental level. That and people willing to spend time educating others.
if you aren’t a stereo-typically perfect individual, that’s fine, you almost certainly have something useful that you can teach someone young that’s around you.
Men grow up to have whatever habits worked well for them when they were boys.
Tolerate dishonesty in boys? They’ll be dishonest as men.
Encourage aggression in boys? They’ll be aggressive as men.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
This is inevitably true of women too, though girls tend to push different boundaries than boys.
Reward emotional manipulation in girls? They’ll be emotionally manipulative as women. (Boys do this too, but they’re often not as subtle about it, get called out, and switch to anger instead)
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
I feel like this isn’t necessarily a bad thing… My son is super picky, and it’s annoying for sure, but it doesn’t deserve to be in the same list as dishonesty or aggression… It means he knows what he likes and won’t let anyone push him into something he’s not comfortable with. He’ll try new things on occasion, but he has to be ready for it, if we push him he just digs in and refuses to budge. I’ve had the best results with “hey bud, want to try this? It’s really good” and when he says no, “suit yourself, more for me.” It doesn’t work often, but when it does, it sticks. New food option unlocked. My wife will bargain with him, and she gets him to try stuff, but only to get what she’s offering, even if he ends up liking it, he needs to keep up the appearance that he doesn’t because it’s been made into such a big deal…
There are pluses and minuses for most things. Aggression can be very useful if the kid is into sports, or even competitive video games. Too much can be a problem, but too little and you get Milton from Office Space.
Pickiness can be thought of as the opposite of adventurousness. If someone’s too picky they may never try new things. If they’re too adventurous, they may never settle down, and might seek out situations that are too dangerous and thrilling.
I don’t know if how you’re raising your kid is good or not. But, I do know that as a kid, my parents never would have put up with that kind of pickiness. Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal. On one hand, this did result in my absolutely hating brussels sprouts. They were always prepared ultra mushy and now, even if I try some that are prepared well, the memory of the disgusting ones comes up and I gag. On the other hand, I’m pretty adventurous when it comes to trying new foods. I’ll hesitate a bit at brains or other organs, bugs, and fermented things, but other than that I’m eager to try new things. I think overall it served me well to have been pushed to eat outside my tiny comfort zone as a kid.
Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal.
My mother tried that with me. Unfortunately for her, I inherited her stubbornness, so I was willing to just not eat and/or be punished.
Eventually she caved and changed the rule from “Eat what I make or don’t eat” to “Eat what I make or make something your damn self”, which I found much more agreeable.
Oh hey, it’s me
My mom wasn’t as stubborn though, she caved to “Fine, make it yourself” pretty early, and then I ended up being a decent cook. I attribute the fact that I took Home Ec (particularly cooking) to the fact that I was picky, and was allowed to be so
Ok, there’s a lot here so I’m going to try to address it all without losing my train of thought and going off on too many tangents…
For one, I don’t think food pickiness translates at all to general adventurousness. Our daughter will try anything food-wise, but she’s a chicken otherwise. Fortunately she’s not quite as stubborn as our son, and she’s also a show-off, so she’ll overcome her fear if it gives her something to brag about.
I was a pretty picky eater as a child too, but I would also leave the house and do my own thing way past when I was expected to come home, much to the chagrin of whichever parent I was living with at the time. My dad would just send me to bed with no TV if I didn’t eat what was presented, which was a pretty big motivator to me at the time, as well as trying to make me feel bad for insulting his ability to cook. I remember swordfish that was like leather, and scallops like rubber… I’ll never try either of those things now. My mom on the other hand would go apeshit if I didn’t eat her food, there were more than a few times she would force feed me, just one of many ways she illustrated the line between discipline and abuse by stepping over it …
Anywho… We can’t really do the whole “eat it or you go hungry” thing with our son because he was born with a heart defect that makes it hard for him to gain weight, and that’s the one thing he needs to do to overcome it. He just turned 7, and while his height is about average, his weight is about that of a 5 year old. He’s a noodle.
I don’t think being forced to try new foods when you’re young makes you more likely to try new foods as you get older, you just get more ok with trying new foods as you get older regardless.
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i’m wondering how long it’s going to be before society realizes it has to do something about this unless it wants people like tate raising their children.
This has been a problem in the making for a long time and it’s even worse now with the internet so accessible.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It’s not really primed to do anything productive.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
it’s not that we need to call it out, we shouldn’t allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it’s not like he up and stopped doing that shit.
the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren’t doing at much of any rate.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
exactly.
Idk if it’s getting worse, most gen z boys seem to have been taught to clean much better than those before and are expected to be able to cook. That’s not to say all movements to equality happen in the right direction, it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
yeah but that’s equivalent to shit like showering and brushing your teeth. If you don’t know how to do that shit you quite literally are a dependent.
it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
this is more of a shitpost than anything to be fair.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
Where did they say no good men exist?
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Nope.
When you’re talking about demographics, you do not need to carve out exceptions for every single little outlier—it would be useless to talk about them otherwise.
It implies they had some bad dates.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
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my cohort? lmfao dude. I don’t KNOW every individual man but I have to be careful no matter who it is. that’s not misandry. men are scared of being lonely or perceived as threatening or being made fun of. women are scared of being raped and killed. nobody called you a rapist, dude, but we can’t trust blindly.
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how am I to know whether any given man is a rapist? we’re talking about men here because women need to be careful around all men. I don’t hate men, I generally love them; nobody wants to have to be this careful. Andrew Tate being as popular as he was only scares people more. because of all this, many women have given up on looking for male partners. I can’t really blame them; in many places, the risk is high.
I’m not gonna be the “not all men” guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that’s all you’re gonna find.
Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say “there’s no positives”, and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
It’s like you can’t even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.
That wasn’t my point. Good job failing at reading comprehension.
As opposed to modern women, who are sterling paragons that men would be crazy to not marry.
Woman are also not being properly socialized (although in my rant, I argue this is an intergenerational problem).
The problem is everyone is sexually frustrated and no one can find anyone they’re hot for who is available.
Previous generations handled this with singles bars and one night stands, but Millennials and Zoomers are so overworked and underpaid they just can’t be bothered to deal with other people’s bullshit, men or women.
Hence where all the lonely people come from, and the plummeting birth rate.
What rant? Can you link it? Sounds interesting.
Yeah, This one here.
Same post. Different comment.
What are you referring to?
Mainly referring to the growing disconnect between men becoming more socially conservative while women are becoming more socially liberal. There’s a growing demographic of men, at least in the USA, that are being welcomed into movements like MGTOW and Passport Bros, while women on the left are going on TV and social media talking about how they would rather run into a bear than a man, men are useless and have no place in society. Meanwhile what’s in it for men? Get married, get divorced, wife takes everything, takes the kids, takes the house, even if they are the ones initiating divorce most often.
Men are being raised to not be desirable? Which men? The upper 10% of men that 90% of women think they have a shot at marrying because they sleep with that 10% that has a rolladex of girls. Meanwhile those women often have 10 guys in the friend zone ready to go when they hit the wall at 30-40 and finally want to settle down with all their relationship trauma.
men are useless and have no place in society.
You are projecting your insecurities, my guy.
Like, you’re over here complaining about hypergamy at the same time that you’re whining about this very pedophilic “hit the wall” business. What’s wrong with being 35, exactly? Won’t you be 35 one day?
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not part of those groups. But I do see them growing and the issue is that those groups are the only ones courting those people.
Nothing wrong with 35. But people are most definitely influenced by relationships they’ve had. Running those numbers up doesn’t seem to be beneficial for anyone in terms of long term happiness.
And what do you mean projecting? I’ve seen clips of women on TV saying that. That’s not me saying it.
They might be growing. I feel like I haven’t heard about MGTOW in a while, but whatever. And, it is true the right wing apparatus is built to court men’s favor specifically, yeah. But that apparatus socializes them into pretty toxic people. When people complain about men, those conservative attitudes are what they’re talking about.
Unless you hang out in some strange circles. It’s obviously possible someone just really hates men, but letting that overshadow a real criticism is pretty god damn silly, in my opinion.
I’m just not sure what any of this has to do with women not being sterling marriage material.
This is what I mean about projection. You’ve got a chip on your shoulder about something, and so from a tweet with a fairly benign take on men as a culture, we get this insecure, jealous, whataboutism about careerless women being owed alimony, I guess.
I would agree that the left gives up too much social capital about men to the right.
I need to have a chip on my shoulder to think the original post could easily be written about both sexes? Does that mean you have a chip on your shoulder against men? I don’t follow your logic.
As opposed to modern women, who are sterling paragons that men would be crazy to not marry.
To be this spiteful about it? Kinda. You’re treating this like a tit-for-tat battle of the sexes for dominance in society, a contest to prove which one really is better, instead of, you know, a grievance somebody has with men as a culture.
Let’s imagine you’re right, that women aren’t great. Would this mean that the men who are socialized not to be desirable don’t have anything to do, then? Because both sexes are equally awful, neither one is obligated to improve?
Care to elaborate?
Lmao at the crazies replying to you as if they couldn’t bear the idea that the argument is empty and could be flipped on its head.
… What argument?
Neither OP nor GameChild has made an argument. They’ve just said things.
“Cheese is delicious.”
“No, it’s not.”
“Damn, my argument was flipped on its head.”What are you talking about?
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Every man is the son of a woman.
Yes and no. There are plenty of people raised by same sex adoptive parents
Kinda unfair, plenty of chill men. If you keep running into undesirables, please reflect on yourself
Cool, we caught a live “not all men” over here!!
Not exactly, if you want me to blunt I am saying that if everywhere you go there are assholes, then the asshole is probably you. You being a woman is inconsequential
Friend, it’s not that this is a fact, it’s that you brought it into the conversation. It’s also genuinely not all men either, the problem is that every time a woman speaks up there’s a chorus of men ready to respond “Not All Men” instead of actually listening.
This criticism only really works when it’s a woman speaking of their personal experience with men, not when it’s someone making a generalisation about all men.
Nothing was brought into the conversation, it was an all men/ not all men thing from the beginning.
I am listening, I think it’s a case by case basis and generalizations just alienate people instead of making them empathetic or sympathetic.
I also know that people tend to downplay women’s concerns as part of misogynistic histories, so I am mindful of that too. I do my part to speak up against these kinds of patterns when I see them
Edit I am just giving my pov, I wish there was a way to know which approach is more helpful.
Edit 2 but yeah, I tend to generalize too, so I get the need to do it when something annoys you enough
Youre not wrong, I’m in a lot of trans circles and their type of thinking tends to be detrimental to trans men, or at least extremely isolating.
But hey anyone that tries to enforce a gender divide is gonna have to encourage division somehow
With a bonus “It’s clearly your fault as the woman”.
Damn. Self accountability is sexism now?
Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don’t particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn’t hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I’m pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don’t much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like to see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.
As a man I have to agree, we’re fucking spoiled, but in the worst way possible. It’s not just that we allow men to be pigs and monsters, society expects it of us as kids, and if we don’t behave like it, we get called weird and gay and pushed aside as freaks. In my childhood it was very much be shit or be treated like shit. It really fucked my confidence and effectively ruined 90% of interactions with women, as I became to scared to even look one in the eyes, not wanting to be seen as a threat again for breathing the same air. As many men, it’s a miracle I found someone (or rather I was lucky enough to have a good friend that would introduce me) and thank fucking god, because I was slowly turning into an incel… Now I actually get to be a functional member of society and make someone happy.
It always triggers me a bit when I complain about me not having showered/shaved/groomed my self yet and a women tells me “you don’t have to, you’re a man”. I understand your daily struggle and injustice as a women and that you have it much worse, but what am I to do? Cut off my dick? Shrivel up and die? Maybe then I can become a vile enough rotting lump of shit to be a “REAL MAN”.
