- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
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Fucking backward religion. So much would be better without any religion whatsoever
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As a Muslim, I’ll say two things:
1-“Religion of peace” is a word made up by right-wing Islamophobes so they can hate on Islam more. Islam never claims to be a “religion of peace”, though peace is valued highly in Islam.
2-What Iran is doing is at best tangentially related to Islam. They’re a dictatorship, plain and simple.
But it seems that when religion is intermixed with politics, it inevitably leads to dictatorships or regressive government.
At one point, where is the separation? I get that dictatorships also happen without religion, but it seems that religious parties in power inevitably bring a regressive agenda with them.
Religion in general is based on a utopian (and usually archaic) view of the world and humanity so it is inherently at odds with reality, so it constantly needs to be pushed on people to keep them following it. If you have a government that depends on following the rules and your government is religious based then you now have to force people to keep following seemingly arbitrary and ridiculous rules “just because”.
Ahh yes. This is the discussion we all get to have for the rest of our lives
I get that it’s necessary but can we shorten it up some. Like put together some acronyms and host a website. Let’s get some copy pastas going and maybe a comic we can link. In no time we can just say something like:
RAGE or some shit which means Religious Authortains Go Extinct.
I’d say that this is an example of correlation vs causation (nowadays the conditions that are likely to produce religious governments are also exceedingly likely to produce dictatorships), but either way that’s not what I’m talking about.
The point is: There’s nothing in Islam justifying the shit they’re doing in Iran. At times like these people tend to forget that Middle Eastern cultures themselves are quiet sexist, and are many times actually held back by Islam, speaking as a Middle Eastern guy. That aside, this is a dictatorship that’s using Islam to give itself legitimacy; Islam itself doesn’t support this kind of behavior in the slightest, and most Muslims don’t either.
I understand that Islam doesn’t support anything like that in the scriptures, just like many other religions.
But religion has been used for milleniums as a cover for atrocious actions. At this point, they are not separable. So when is it enough?
Religion is inherently conservative. And we see everyday what conservatism does to the planet and the society.
But religion has been used for milleniums as a cover for atrocious actions. At this point, they are not separable. So when is it enough?
But don’t non-religious dictatorships also commit atrocious actions? In the end a cover is just that: a cover.
I am not talking about dictatorships only. Religion has been used to cover so many atrocities that it’s impossible to dissociate the actions from the religion itself.
But don’t non-religious dictatorships also commit atrocious actions?
Just because people die from heart attacks doesn’t mean cancer does not kill.
The USSR was atheist and was easily as terrible as Iran is now.
I’d say more personally given they actually committed genocide, but yeah.
I am not saying that being a secular person stops that person from being shitty, but religion has been used to cover so many atrocities that the actions taken in the name of the religion cannot be disassociated from the religion itself.
There is nothing inherent in Islam (or any religion) either way. You can present it as moderate or extremist depending on what parts of it you emphasize more, not unlike reform vs ultra orthodox judaism.
No? As a Muslim that’s not a thing in Islam, since we didn’t (and have no intention of having) a reformation. All parts of Islam are equally emphasized.
I know. I didn’t say Islam had a reformation.
Many Muslim leaders have called Islam a religion of peace. For example, the former Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, Ahmed el-Tayeb, has said that “Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance” and that “it is against all forms of violence and terrorism.” The current Grand Imam, Ahmed al-Tayyib, has also said that “Islam is a religion of peace and love” and that “it is against all forms of violence and extremism.”
Other Muslim leaders who have called Islam a religion of peace include the former King Abdullah II of Jordan, the former President of Indonesia Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and the former Prime Minister of Malaysia Mahathir Mohamad.
Calling Islam a religion of peace and calling it the “religion of peace” as a name are different things. Peace is valued highly in Islam, but it’s not defined by it.
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I keep it as Ricky Gervais once put it: for a true religion of peace, the most extreme followers would be extremely peaceful.
I wish I could meet some True Followers of Islam, I bet they all live in Scotland with the True Scotsmen.
They live… uh…
everyoneeverywhere. Quick reminder that the people protesting in Iran were also Muslims; they weren’t imported for the occasion.Edit: Fuck I brainfarted at the most important part.
True Scotsmen Muslims
Ban religion. In my eyes, those who are religious are terrorists
Are you a troll or are you actually that dumb?
Do you support gay/trans rights?
No, and if the criticism was directed at that I’d understand, but that’s clearly not what’s going on in the comments here. So can we keep criticism to things that are factually true, and not the actions of a minority dictatorship that’s opposed by their own population?
The reason I was able to guess that was because I looked at data on Islamic beliefs around the world. Most also support sharia law, which supports the use of lashes for various crimes(correct me if I’m wrong).
So do you believe lashes are an acceptable form of punishment? If so, then is your argument simply around it’s usage in this context and that there’s no Islamic law that states to lash people protesting the religion?
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Are you trying to tell that Iran has nothing to do with Islam? Is hijab has nothing to do with Islam?
Lashing people for saying things you don’t like has nothing to do with Islam.
Or is Iran following wrong/different kind of Islam?
Iran is Shia so since I’m Sunni my answer would be yes, but that’s not what you’re asking. An asshole that uses Islam as an excuse doesn’t indict Islam as a whole. Or it does, in which case we could use China and the USSR to say a lot about atheism.
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Christianity calls itself a religion of peace as well. I’m with @TheBlue22. The problem isn’t just Islam, it’s religion as a whole.
Humans created all religions. Seems like the problem is in our firmware :/
Could just be emergent. I don’t know if humans have a religious drive it could just be we have certain ways our minds tend to break.
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Iran should just deport all their engineers, philosophers, critical thinkers, social unacceptable members to other countries that would be glad to receive a brain boost. That way, Iran could just happily fucking rot in its own juices.
Nah, the religious fanatics should all just move to a mountain top monastery like they did in ancient times. They’d be much happier there.
I’d accept that too! And stop being allowed to make social policy and laws!
Well one of them managed to escape
They already are!
Who is going to take them? Every country puts up walls to keep refugees out.
People with advanced education have a much easier time immigrating.
Money
I am so sad that the mass protests had no effect. Poor Iranian people, especially women. What can anyone do to free them?
Conservatism is a global plague. Pacifism has never worked to cure this disease. Until the normal people rise up and do the horrific dirty work needed to erase this disease, it will continue to infect and kill.
The cure is not clean, but history has proven that conservatism is a fatal disease when left untreated.
The protests weren’t peaceful. They were riotous. It didn’t work, unfortunately.
I’m aware. And I am heart-broken. The violence, unfortunately, must involve not stopping until the conservatives no longer exist in any position of power. Extreme violence with a lack of mercy may be required. I don’t think the Iranian people really have that in them. I hope I am proven wrong some day. This government was foisted upon them by us. This conservative government was not entirely the people’s fault in this case.
For the rest of us, wherever the conservative disease persists, the natural result will always be brutal oppression of the vulnerable. Always. A cure must be administered long before the disease becomes this advanced.
They didn’t work because they weren’t fighting Islam they were fighting a more extreme version of it. Diet Islam vs Real Islam = Real Islam winning.
Successful revolutions it is trivial to name Atheist/Diest leaders.
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If the cure for violence is more violence, are you really solving anything?
I mean yes.
Fair enough, violence away and we’ll see how it plays out.
The ones that lose don’t ever argue. In fact, everyone alive today is the product of one group violently defeating the other. It sucks, but the person that doesn’t fight back doesn’t survive to future generations while the bullies proliferate.
Tit for Tat seems the way to go https://youtu.be/BOvAbjfJ0x0?si=wbrd1YByz5DJkX43
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/BOvAbjfJ0x0?si=wbrd1YByz5DJkX43
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
They say those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Maybe they should also say those who know history will choose to repeat it.
I was heartened to hear about the people keeping up the public opposition of the clerics, beyond knocking off their turbans. I hope that the clerics understand that their time is passing and that they are shaking in their sandals with the very realistic fear that they will continue to get randomly gunned down by the people anytime an opportunity presents it. Fuck theocratic Islam and all other exclusivist religions.
Even the Gulanist movement from Turkey, who likes to put on a friendly face to the western world, is exclusivist – if pressed, their real opinions come through their strategic friendly face da’wah, e.g., it is not hard to get them to call Sufis (one of the few mystical/not-exclusivist islamic groups) heretics or “not real muslims.”
it is not hard to get them to call Sufis (one of the few mystical/not-exclusivist islamic groups) heretics or “not real muslims.”
Exclusivist meaning? Because while I would hesitate to call anyone a heretic as a Muslim I can think of quite a few reasons someone would call Sufis that.
Yes, because you apparently hold exclusivist ideas about what a “real muslim” is. Religious exclusivity is where you believe your way is the only way to a proper relationship with “god,” that non-members of your group are doomed in some way or another, and that atheists and those religions that don’t believe in the Abrahamic God are especially doomed.
Oh, that’s what you meant. That’s… uh… how religions work in general? Like yeah if that’s the meaning then not being exclusivist is just kufr. The only weird part that you consider being exclusivist such a bad thing.
Believe it or not, that is not how religions work in general. Not that you could tell over the noise of the fundamentalist evangelical christians, but major Christian denominations are no longer exclusivist, no longer believe that any religious text is divinely inspired and flawless, gave up the iron age notion of women as so much chattel entirely subject to the will of men, etc. Judaism is largely NOT exclusivist though the orthodox believe that Jews should be observant to their interpretation of the jewish law.
The fact that you’re willing to call out what is kufr or not is but one example that modern Islam is by-and-large fundamentalist, just a question of degree.
The fact that you’re willing to call out what is kufr or not is but one example that modern Islam is by-and-large fundamentalist, just a question of degree.
That’s true.
Buddhism, at least in some of its forms, isn’t like that. For example, Zen Buddhism would absolutely not endorse the suggestion that Zen Buddhists know something others don’t know, or have anything special, or have a special technique, or can come to gain or achieve something special that sets them apart from others. If you wander towards any of these ideas you’d be very clearly missing the point.
Start by protesting religion in your own country. Religion is bad everywhere. If some crazy groups want to believe in fairies, that’s ok, just do it in your home and don’t bring it out of there.
Publicly putting groups in your cross hairs tends to motivate said group.
Motivates said group to what?
Whatever they perceive as defensive measures. Rallying against those they are threatened by, recruiting, doubling down on their commitment and beliefs.
Then the government must take stricter measurements against said groups. Lets see who lose at the end.
What can anyone do to free them?
Arm them.
How do you get the arms to them?
Well step 1 should not be selling drugs in Latin America. We already tried that.
I think they had a very large effect, hence this pathetic pushback from the govt.
What can anyone do to free them?
The problem is religion. The best way to deconvert people is to show them that you can function without skydaddy. Allah (as a concept) has always been a narcissist, you are nothing without it.
Me personally if I was given the task I would move billions into generating content showing people of Iranian background living normal lives with diet-Islam to no-Islam. From movies and TV, to hiring Instagramers. An ocean of content being pumped into there every year.
I think the problem is the US-installed dictatorship, but I could be wrong Idk.
Absolutely. It was space vegan socialism humanist utopian paradise prior to 1953. Such a fine year 1953, my parents wouldn’t be born for a decade and they are grandparents now. That was the also the moment Islam developed all of its problems, you see there was no slaves, or gender oppression, or bigotry, or war, or dictatorships for 1300 years. Nope just utter paradise for 13 centuries.
Why is the standard a perfect society instead of societies from the same time period?
skydaddy I Lollled a bit 🤣🤣 🤣
Thanks, wish I could claim to have coined the term. Such an improvement over “heavenly father”.
Religion of peace
This is wrong by an islamic standpoint. Go to reddit with this bs… Life isnt that simple you 🤡
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(or practically any country with an islamic majority),
Oh you mean like Indonesia, Malaysia and all of North Africa? You’re free to be an ignorant Islamophobe, but please do it after using Google for five seconds.
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And Islamophobe it was created to deflect any criticism of islam,
No, it was created because people like you hate Muslims, and we needed a term for that. Or are you somehow denying that Muslims experience discrimination based on their religion (if only we had a term for that, maybe something starting with Islam and ending with phobia)?
Either way I don’t intend to pursue this conversation any further, but if your answer to my question is yes (and even if it’s no, really), you need to interact more with the outside world.
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Does not change anything about what i said. Religion has nothing to do with any of this, these countries would still be shitholes even if it never existed, but sure keep telling yourself what you want, makes it easier
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İran has been muslim for quite some time, was it always as it is right now? Do you seriously think that islam is the only factor here? Think a little bit for yourself
Hijab is not mandatory in Pakistan, you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about
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If in Pakistan, a democratic Muslim-majority country, hijab is not mandatory, then what makes you think a majority of Muslims agree with what this poor woman is going through? Hijab is also not mandatory in Turkey, Indonesia, and Morocco, but go on ahead and tell me how all Muslims are blood thirsty savages. Plenty of Muslims protested against the hijab in Iran just last year, but go on ahead and tell me how they support this woman’s sentencing. After all, according to you, a vast majority of Muslims wish harm on women who decide not to wear a hijab.
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She is getting 74 lashes for not wearing a hijab, what in the world are you going on about? You’re trying to say that what she is going through is Islamic and there are plenty of arguments all throughout this comment section proving that it has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, yet you keep on going on about how evil they are and how they approve of her fate. I suggest you take a reading comprehension test, or better yet, stop trying to purposefully obfuscate your argument as it becomes more and more untenable.
You definitely convinced me.
I dont need to convince you, believe what you want. Im just telling you that youre wrong
This is wrong by an islamic standpoint.
The part about it being the religion of peace? Yeah we noticed.
Wait, people actually still get lashes?? What fucking year is this
Lashes is for the lucky ones.
The less lucky ones get hanged. And if you think hanged as in a quick drop and neck snap, no. They hang you slowly with a crane so that you suffer more, that is required by
Darth vaderthe ayatollah…Fuck everything about those religious zealot nut cases
It’s the age where in many muslim countries, if you say something even mildly critical about the ruling class or the priests or Islam, there’s a very high risk of being executed for it.
In Muslim countries it’s always the middle ages
yeah welcome to the real world
More like the modern dark ages
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A religion where women are beaten and people are blown up for fun. Islam is like a cancer of all modern religions. I must check how many down votes I get in next 12h.
cancer of all modern religions
Meh, they’re all pretty bad imo
Modern Religion is an oxymoron
Oh none from me, though I’d pool just about every other religion in with that. They’re all shit in their own ways. The concept of a modern religion also makes no sense, by their nature religions are archaic power tools used to control the masses against their individual will via their collective will.
A religion where women are beaten and people are blown up for fun.
I’ll just say that we (well most of us) also hate the people who do these things. I’ll also say that you’re a bigot.
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“We are struggling against sanctions and need to build our own capacities up and become more independent.”
“Better attack the people we need to do it then. A piece of cloth is more important than our survival.”
so much fuss over a hat,please muslims, make it make sense. why is it a female’s job to worry about your stupid ass erections?
Dont say muslims, i dont give a shit what you think this is OBVIOUSLY not what the majority of muslims want or support. This isnt even right in the most literal islamic pov
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Would you kindly explain how the no true Scotsman fallacy applies here?
It is explained for 5 yearolds in the article.
The people doing this are muslims doing it in the name of Islam. If you’re only defence is that they’re not “real” muslims then youre what the fallacy is talking about.
I’m not saying they’re not real Muslims, but that doesn’t mean all Muslims, or Islam as a whole, is like that. Actions of the minority don’t define the majority, or else they’d be just that: A majority.
The silence of the mayority is complicit approval
And Mohamed can take his shit book and push it right up his pedophile ass
Yeah nah over a billion people dont have to speak up because of actions like this in random ass countries, especially a shia country, that mist wouldn’t even consider muslim…
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Again no, there is no such rule. You can not enforce Islam and you can not punish someone for not following it with lashes, such things are forbidden.
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Just because they claim that doesnt make it actually 100% islamic dumbass tf
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How tf do you even get a thought like ? It really impresses me You willingly misinterpret what im saying
A country of barbarians.
every religious-led country is a country of barbarians.
it is the human collective absolving themselves of responsibility in liue of some greater power
religion is a transmissible poison that must be removed, like cigarettes
Hooray, a Persian Gulf country sentenced someone to a punishment other than death for a harmless crime!
I thought 74 Lashes were clearly lethal?
AFAIK there is nothing humane about such a sentence, on the contrary, it can mean slow and painful death.
I just tried to find this out, in most muslim countries, the too many lashes are spread out over several times, to avoid death. A limit is for example 50 lashes per time in Saudi Arabia.
Fucking barbarians.
Absolutely, although I don’t think barbarians were quite that bad.
Wasn’t barbarian just Roman slang for non Romans?
Yes, but more specifically the non romans from the north.
I think Barbarian comes from much later when the Barbary Pirates were kidnapping people and razing villages and towns to the ground and forcing people into slavery. I think “Goths” and “Vandals” would be more appropriate, but I could be wildly mistaken
Queue the blood eagle!
Obligatory I don’t agree with the mess going on in Iran.
With that out of the way, there’s a decent amount of restrictions on the lashing process to make the sentence painful but not lethal or permanently disabling. Lashing someone with all your strength and ripping the flesh off their back pre-Civil War America style isn’t a thing., because ripping the flesh off people’s backs tends to kill them.
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This isn’t specific to Islam. This is what theocracy looks like. Very few religions are fit doctrines on which to run a country. There are plenty of American Christians who would have me killed for who I am.
The US was ~90% Christian until recently. Same with our elected officials, bad things happen from time to time and stupid laws, but the rate of attrocious incidents like this are far less. You could argue it’s cultural, not based in religious text, but tell that to apostates that fear for their lives.
I think Christianity can be used as the banner for an archaic regime just as easily as Islam. It hasn’t mostly because Christian majority countries happen to have moved on to science, industry and commerce. Middle East countries have been so actively fucked with by the west that they really can’t climb that ladder, except the ones that have some stability thanks to having a monarch defended by the west. Iran’s holy revolution was a response to a US puppet ruler. Afghanistan has been kept in the dark ages by constant war fueled by western states. Yemen has been brutalized by the Saudis without repercussion because the West protect the Saudis.
So who are really the barbarians in this picture? The west enjoy all the trappings of a modern society but the games they play with other regions in the world are beyond barbaric: the barbarism is just more obscured and geographically removed.
Throw some bombs at Mississippi, kill the bulk of their leadership, and they’ll be hanging queers in a week. I have been attacked in public by an American Christian extremist; I sometimes get to fear for my life right here in the Midwest. Put these people in a state of desperation, and it’ll be a swampy theocracy in no time. America is ~250 years into running a country that was founded on not having a state religion. That’s a far cry from a theocracy founded under violent foreign interference less than a century ago, and we still have dangerous religious extremists. It’s not a matter of culture. It’s a matter of circumstance.
Mississippi, Alabama, and Missouri are 100% archaic Christian shithole countries that are just propped up by virtue of being US states. The religious stranglehold is just as real.
To be honest I’ve avoid that region pretty much entirely because that’s the impression I have as well.
The descriptions I hear about conservatism down there are wild.
Mate. The Christian religion spawns YE creationists. Thoughts and prayers for the victims of avoidable massacres. Life sentences of servitude for mothers of rape babies. Life sentences of fear for gay people.
All religion is twisted. Why pick on one or another? They all need to go.
Holy shit is 74 lashes even survivable?? I feel like it would flay the flesh off
hisher back and never recover, die from infection or something. Not a doctor and not a torturer so idk.Her back. It was a female engineer protesting being forced to wear a hijab.
My mistake, misread the post thanks. Horrible, poor woman.
From what I understand they can stretch that over multiple sessions. No idea if they have a fixed set of lashes per session or if they simply stop when a doctor signals it gets problematic and continue when the wounds have somewhat started to heal.
It’s actually a pretty common punishment in Iran so should be survivable for most people, or people would revolt if their teenager lashed to death for drinking alcohol.
Obligatory what Iran is doing makes no fucking sense.
That aside, lashing in Islam doesn’t mean lashing with all your strength and ripping the flesh off the guy you’re lashing. There are a lot of restrictions to make the process painful, but survivable without permanent injuries.
Fuck any religion that posits death or beating for anyone. Fuck any religion that teaches women are subservient to men. I don’t give a flying fuck about “a lot of restrictions” – fuck this brutal religion.
This may be my ignorance speaking, but I’d far rather be lashed than imprisoned.
I’d rather see the clerical leadership publicly executed for their crimes against humanity and Iranians be free from the boot of oppression.
Idk why you’re downvoted for this. I would too.
I once headbutted a cop while already in jail, and they just took me to a side room and beat the shit out of me (I was still handcuffed), and I’d take that over “assault on an officer” charge 100 times out of 100.
I’m certain this is vastly worse than what I got, but I’d still rather be whipped than imprisoned. I don’t do well behind bars.
Depends on the lashing.
https://www.history.com/news/whipped-peter-slavery-photo-scourged-back-real-story-civil-war
Someone asked a question and I answered. What are you so upset about?
I don’t think they’re upset at you, just in general.
Uh, I’m upset about religions that teach people women are not worthy of being on the same level as men. I’m upset that certain countries beat the crap out of people to dissuade then from opposing the decisions of their ruling oligarchs…
*typos
I’m upset at the use of obligatory
It’s because without mentioning that part I’ll get a whole bunch of FUCK YOU BARBARIAN YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED blah blah blah because it can sound like I’m defending what Iran is doing at first glance.
And muslisms in france don’t understand the ban of hijabs in schools. This is why.
Talk about a non-sequitor.
Explain?
You’re basically saying France that banning hijab somehow has anything to do with not becoming a dictatorship.
It is banning a religious ideal imposed by an opressive reliegion. It has anything to do with not becoming a dictatorship.
This is how a dictatorship look like: “Iranian Enginner who protested forced hijab sentenced to 74 lashes”
I was told that it was a ban on all religious symbols and it wasn’t a targetted attack on a minority group. Now you are saying it is targeted.
Are we doing the “say the quite part loud” now?
When did I say it was targeted?
You implied it. "banning a religious ideal imposed by an opressive reliegion. "
You’re still not actually supporting that claim. I guess this is what it looks like when you haven’t reasoned your way into a position.
By the way, there’s a reason democracies tend to value freedom of religion.
Is anyone banning people from being Muslims? Let me know and I’ll go protest for them to the streets.
Seriously, this is the best you came up with? Technically being Muslim isn’t banned in China either. Preventing people from harmlessly practicing their religion is also against freedom of religion.
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Wait what??? But my college buddy who fell down the ruzzian propaganda pipeline tells me the west is evil and Iran is actions of the most moral countries out there!!
Jfc
All religion is fucking useless Jai sree ram jai sree ram 😼🚶 Anyone knows about Dinkoism ? Its a parody religion from kerala
That’s actually really interesting. I wonder if any religious folks are able to deconstruct their own beliefs after seeing this movement.
