• FaeDrifter@midwest.social
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    13
    ·
    1 year ago

    It’s not capitalism, it’s industrialization that’s making the planet less habitable, which is completely possible under socialism or communism.

    • lingh0e@lemmy.film
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      Correct, however if the workers own the means of production they would have greater motivation AND greater ability to change the methods of industrialization to ways that are a little less… pollutey or dangerous.

      Instead, under capitalism, we get politicians who are actively working to eliminate as many environmental, health and safety regulations as possible because they’re bribed lobbied to do so by their corporate masters.

      • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Instead, under capitalism, we get politicians who are actively working to eliminate as many environmental, health and safety regulations as possible

        Under capitalism, we got those regulations to begin with…

        Which to be fair, isn’t because of capitalism we got regulation, but because of Democracy. Democracy is capable of keeping capitalism in check, to a point. After a certain amount of wealth inequality, which we’ve already passed, capitalism goes destructively out of control.

        Correct, however if the workers own the means of production

        I generally agree, although if you have a “dictatorship of the proletariat” like the USSR that desides it needs to heavily industrialize to compete with capitalist counties, it could be just as bad or worse for the environment.

        • lingh0e@lemmy.film
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          You don’t want a “dictatorship of the proletariat”, and neither do I, but we already have corporations trying to strip regulations and policies because they want America to be more like China or Russia. Mega corps could make a little more money if they were free to pollute and exploit as they pleased.

          And, let’s be clear, aside from some Uber-comrade tankies, no one is suggesting we adopt a soviet or Maoist style communism.

      • Mikina@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        I’m not really that much invested in politics and don’t really know much about any of the leading sociological/political theories aside from the common knowledge, but your point made me realize something.

        if the workers own the means of production they would have greater motivation AND greater ability to change the methods

        Oh, god. Give how does the political landscape looks across the world, be it the fact that there are still millions of Trump supporters, the fact that it looks like that in Slovakia, a guy who’s basically unhinged and outright evil will win elections, and Hungary has it the same, to give just a few examples I know about from the top of my head…

        Imagine if people who vote or act like that had the means of production. But that’s just my general loss of faith in humanity, and I by no means want to start arguing about whether socialism is/isn’t good, since I know nothing about it. Just a random though I had when I read your comment.

        • lingh0e@lemmy.film
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          That’s a very valid point. But the people you are describing are already in positions of power or authority, they’re just all concentrated near the top of the chain. When you distribute that power and authority amongst the entire work force, things suddenly have a chance change for the better.

          I actually spent some time working for one of the largest employee owned corporations in America. There were plenty of MAGA minded people working there, and It’s amazing how quickly they’ll embrace traditionally liberal or socialist notions when it affects their shares of stock. Things like strict health and safety regulations, hiring diversity and strong unions.

          Obviously there will still be shitty people who make shitty decisions, hopefully there just wouldn’t be as many as there seem to be today.

        • lingh0e@lemmy.film
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          If the actual workers owned the actual means of production, I.E. if the people who’s entire livelihood depended on fishing that sea, do you believe they would have let unscrupulous people on the other side of the country exploit the sea the way they did?

            • lingh0e@lemmy.film
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              The simple fact that we have developed methods of production that can eliminate or, at the very least, mitigate catastrophic environmental impact, yet there are STILL corporate interests doing everything in their power to fight such progress because it’s cheaper to bribe politicians means that, clearly, we’re moving in the wrong direction.