If email were invented today people would complain about how complex and annoying it is to sign up.
OMG another account?! Why can’t I just use my discord smh
Using your email address as username is a common problem for a lot of users.
Some of them are even completely shocked that they can use a different password and don’t understand, that their mail is just their login credentials for this specific site.
The feature “login with Apple/Google/Facebook” exists for a reason.
In college I had to write a program to send emails. This was around 2012. Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from. There are obviously ways to sign the message and verify it and most email servers block messages that don’t have these because of how trivial it is to fake. It’s basically like putting a name tag on that says “Joe Biden” and everyone believing you’re the president.
I didn’t do anything malicious but I did mildly prank my girlfriend. I don’t remember what I did but I’m pretty sure I told her before I did it. I really didn’t want to end up getting expelled for “”“hacking”“” so I didn’t do anything remotely bad. The irony is the assignment wouldn’t have worked and been as interesting if my campus had the proper security measures to block the messages.
It could be that the web client for our email mentioned something about the sender being unverified and not to trust it but I don’t remember.
I sent my gmail address an email from [email protected] and it worked.
Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from.
I remember realizing this and thinking it was weird too when I was reading about SMTP. Specifically, the MAIL FROM command.
Also related.
Spoofing email is hilariously easy. GPG signing really needs to be made easier
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They probably tried to get back to you but used an internal we form that filled the from header with their email address. 💀
Most orgs have an internal SMTP server that will accept and send mail to other internal addresses without any special authentication or validation. It’s almost essential for automatic monitoring software and that sort of thing.
Where the barriers go up is at the border to the Internet. And thank goodness, just a couple decades ago it was sheer chaos.
I was on the school network, so maybe they accept ones from within and reject ones from outside.
I almost got kicked out of school for this! I sent an email to my girlfriend from some girl that we didn’t like, saying something like “you’re a huge bitch, haha just kidding this is actually jballs not the chick we don’t like.”
Problem is that I wrote my girlfriend’s email address wrong, so it bounced back to the sender (the girl we didn’t like).
So I had to explain to a university dean exactly what I did and how I didn’t actually “hack into” the girl’s email account. That was fun.
When it was invented, it was complex and annoying, even by today’s standards.
Still is if you’re not using a product like gmail or outlook that auto enters all of the incoming and outgoing servers.
How many of us have spent time on our ISP’s help page trying to find the damn STMP server domain?
For a small period of time I was a god that would bless people with gmail invites lol. That brings me back. I remember compuserve and Hotmail but I don’t remember them being especially complicated at all. Maybe that was before my time…? Which would be nice for once
Hotmail was already the easy-mode stuff.
Before that you’d get your email account provided by the ISP, and before that you’d have to find someone who ran an email server and ask nicely for them to make you an account.
And regarding ease of use: The reason why e.g. SMTP is human-readable is because in the early days SMTP wasn’t the protocol that your email client used to talk to the server. It was the email client.
You’d just
telnetto your server and type in the SMTP commands manually.Yeah, email existed long before GMail/Hotmail.
Tell me more about the before times oh wise one
Back in my day, we had to deliver each packet by hand! In the snow, uphill both ways!
Saying that times have changed doesn’t negate the fact that times have changed.
I don’t get the email analogy.
People did and DO complain about setting up email. ISP email is a great example of this. People forget their IMAP and SMTP address configuration stuff all the damn time. Always have.
I used to do home IT, and I had to help people through that crap constantly.
That said, these days people have gravitated to clients like gmail or outlook. Those push the user onto a certain domain, which makes setup dead simple. This is what mastodon.social is doing now. Making it so people don’t have to think about the instance at sign up.
Yeah I agree email kinda sucks. But everyone still uses it, and (as far as I’m aware) people aren’t writing articles about how confusing email is for people and why that makes it a failure. Mastodon and Lemmy are, in comparison, much better and way less confusing but you see that said all the time about them.
When email came out the alternative product was the post office or a fax machine. Even though configuring a client was difficult for some, instant digital messaging communication was new. It was a BIG motivator for people to either figure it out, or hire someone like me to figure it out for them.
People are comparing Mastodon to Twitter, a fairly similar core product. The gap between email and mail was much wider.
Both are exaggerated, but fediverse apps absolutely need better onboarding and it’s a totally fixable problem, but not if the community continues to ignore it.
I agree. The issue is 100% UX
Let’s walk though the flow a typical user would experience:
- Search “join mastodon”, find joinmastodon.org
- Click “create account”…
SERVERS: Mastodon is not a single website. To use it, you need to make an account with a provider—we call them servers—that lets you connect with other people across Mastodon.
- 95% of users will bail at this point.
- Scroll down to the instance search UX.
- Too many options. Do I want “all regions” or should I pick my own region? Do I want “all topics” or “general”? 95% of remaining users will bail.
- Pick mastodon.social, sign up.
- Confirmation email takes 12 minutes to arrive. 95% of remaining users will bail.
- Confirm email, log in. Click search.
Search or paste URL
- Wtf does that even mean? Try entering “William Shatner”. No results. Try “Taylor Swift”. Top result is
@taylorswift13@hello.2heng.xinwtf? - Go back, click “see what’s trending”, brings me back to “Taylor Swift”
- Go back, click “find people to follow”, brings me back to “Taylor Swift”
- Close site, 95% of users will who get here will never return.
I disagree, it’s not as easy and normal as Twitter and Threads. Stop lying to yourselves. It’s Dev’s requirement to make it user friendly for the audience and they haven’t. Otherwise this wouldn’t be a thing people are saying lol. Devs and fanboys are so in their own bubble it’s why nothing thrives
What’s complicated about signing up for mastodon.social on the mastodon app?
I think the issue is that it’s not as hard as they make it out to be. It’s not plug and play but do they need everything handed to them ona silver platter
you’d be surprised. Present someone a choice between privacy and convenience, most people will pick convenience.
This is not at all surprising.
Yes
I’m a software engineer with a decade of experience, and I’m frustrated by the experience so far. Bad UX is bad UX.
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Yeah I tried Mastodon a while back and while I absolutely could have finished figuring it out, I didn’t encounter anything interesting enough in my time poking around to encourage me to stay there. While the general concepts behind navigating a federated community are still kinda foreign to me, I was able to get up and running on Lemmy with much more ease and quickly start finding content that was interesting to me.
It’s open source and community-developed, send a pull request for how you want it improved.
As someone who worked in IT support at a university and later as a sys admin: I believe MOST people (including young people) can not use the internet or a computer when it goes beyond installing and using a (popular) app from the App Store.
Many people can not, for example, look up a program via search engine, go to its website, find and click the correct download link and then install the program. Many people don’t even use websites anymore, they only use applications.
Their voices are missing online simply because they are basically tech illiterate. And I think that is a huge problem.
I’ll add to this that most people don’t understand the difference between a service and a client. Yes, even though they use email, to them it’s just “my gmail” and they don’t think past that. They don’t know you can use different clients, or the web. They just don’t. It’s an app on their phone.
The reason the internet was so great in the early 2000s is that THOSE PEOPLE WERENT ON IT.
I’ve had the most confusing conversation when a relative referred to their browser (Chrome) as “Google” (which to me means the search engine or the company, not the browser). It was only when they later mentioned Firefox as an alternative to Google that I realized what they were talking about.
I’m sure it’s not lack of technical skill it’s a mental block, I’ve helped so many people set up software that is literally clicking ok a dozen times then they’re like ‘oh let me print this, hang on I need to compile a firmware update and flash it using a telegraph key…’ big brands have the shittiest software, but people feel they should be able to understand because it’s professional but something like an open source federated social network is nerd stuff so they feel the the shouldn’t be able to.
Case in point, I installed MPV on a friends laptop because VLC wouldn’t play the file without crashing, the install process is super simple but they have green on black hacker terminal output instead of a process bar and you type Y when prompted instead of clicking yes – it gave her anxiety just watching me do it, said maybe we should try uninstalling VLC and reinstalling instead… Of course mpv played the video flawlessly and used less CPU and ram doing so which warmed her to it. There’s no way she couldn’t have understood everything and done it herself but the fact it’s not as corporate as VLC would have written it off (and wow that’s a crazy thing to say, I love that there’s so much great open source software that VLC is middle of the road)
Definitely, some people have some weird kind of anxiety when it comes to this. I think in many cases they believe they aren’t intelligent enough to get it and that only really intelligent people can understand these things.
It is the same in math. It has this aura of being super out there. And, let’s be honest, it seems like some people in tech fields try to uphold that notion.
I try so hard to show people how to do things themselves when they ask me to help them with various tech…whatever, and almost universally get told “no.”
Magic rectangle take me to Facebook, if it doesn’t I need someone to make the magic rectangle take me to Facebook, and I refuse to understand it any further.
Which is funny because if you open the App Store and search for Mastodon you’ll find an app you can install and will prompt you to create an account and login.
Yes it will default to mastodon.social or whatever but that’s a fine default.
Folks that say it’s too hard just don’t even want to try.
i couldnt count how many times my younger brother has asked me to delete files for him
My brother is a grown-up with a degree in finance and his own company and he also isn’t able to do this.
He also refuses to understand that the photos he took with his phone are actual files on his phone. When he got a new phone and transferred his phone number he didn’t understand why the photos didn’t magically appear on the new phones camera app as well. (I think he was confused because he also uses Google Drive.)
Given the number of people I’ve had to walk through downloading my store’s loyalty program app and set up their accounts, I’d believe it.
I had students (at university!) who, instead of starting the program, would either go through the whole process of downloading and installing the program or at least start the installer and installing it again each time they wanted to start the program.
Their voices are missing online simply because they are basically tech illiterate. And I think that is a huge problem.
I’ve seen a number of polls on the age demographics on the fediverse, and they’ve all been pretty consistent … the fediverse is basically on average a Xennial place with a surprising amount of Boomer. There are younger folks, of course, more so on lemmy/kbin than mastodon it seems (which is interesting).
But generally, in line with your comment, there’s a generational filter here that attracts those who remember the value of and how to use the old internet and old computers.
Which, if you think there’s value in what the fediverse is trying to do (free our expression and ownership on the internet), is a problem. Another way of looking at it is that the failure of allowing big-private-monopoly-social platforms to dominate for so long1 will have long lasting side effects including the erasure of what the internet can be in many people’s understanding of the world.
[1]: I’d estimate 2008-2023 as the era of dominant big social, where the closing year of 2023 may be too early or even open ended. That’s 14 years. Which, if we take the web as having started in 1993, and being ~30 years old, is about half the age of the internet. So, it’s a decently objective approximation, then, to say that the web is Facebook etc, especially as the relevance of older things fades. Which only amplifies the harm we allowed to transpire.
Also … check it out … lemmy can do footnotes!! Click the
view sourcebutton to see how I did it if you’re interested.I saw numbers from some study about tech and people’s relationships with it or whatever and it’s insane how many people think Facebook is the entire internet now that they’ve had that integrated browser for so long. It’s just all they ever learned of technology, magic rectangle go to Facebook.
I understand not being “tech savvy,” a “hobbyist,” whatever - but I can’t fathom not bothering to consider how something I use daily works AT ALL. I hate cars but I learned enough to understand how to tentatively diagnose a problem and handle minor maintenance myself, but some people take their car to the dealer like 4x a year instead.
Is madness.
People HATE learning. It makes them feel stupid. So they just avoid it.
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Microsoft tried, they have the Windows Store and certain programs push you to use it, but UWP is an absolute disaster both from a user and a developer perspective so nobody wants that.
Microsoft took a good idea (software repositories) and turned it into a bad idea (software repository controlled by microsoft and you’re not allowed to add/install/validate other repositories).
They could have built (hell, even USED) apt, but they built Store.
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I flirted with journalism before getting my degree in CS.
It’s not an exaggeration to say that the faculty and many of the students were almost proudly “bad at math” and basically bad with tech too, other than learning the basics of a Macbook.
Doesn’t have to be that way and many journalists are smart, great people, but there’s a weird self fulfilling culture when it comes to tech. Not totally sure about how tech focused writers would be similar or different.
Edit: Just googling “journalists bad at math” and got this from the Columbia Journalism Review:
“In many cases, they got into journalism to stay away from math.” Journalists love to joke about how we suck at math.
Edit 2: I guess I was bringing up my experience to be an example of how many journalists do not have a strong grasp of technical concepts and sometimes are almost proud of that. So it doesn’t surprise me that many may have struggled with Mastodon.
That being said, that attitude is far closer to the average user than, say, the user base of this platform, which is likely far more tech savvy. Streamlined user experience is not a bad thing if you desire mainstream use and is something that could be improved, though Mastodon has been making strides in that regard.
I suck at math too. But isn’t the work of a journalist to at least double check? Calculators exist for a reason.
Well, In 10+ years, I’ve never managed to understand how Twitter works, so I guess there’s nowhere to go but up?
To be fair, if you want content on Mastodon, you have to actively go out, find people, and follow them. After you get past that Step 1 of signing up, your home page is empty. There’s no algorithm that automatically deposits content on the main page. You have to do a little bit of work to get anything. As you say, doing this work is not that god damn hard, but sadly for about 80% of people (maybe more), this is an impassible barrier.
On the bright side, once you do get past this barrier, none of the Mastodon content that you are getting is from that bottom eighty percent.
Also the first barrier of picking a server (how it works, the rules of every instance, checking who they federate with) and an app (the will to test multiple apps, learning that to login you have to input the server url manually since most aren’t listed in the apps), to the people who read all the things it’s tedious but doable, for the rest it’s “Which one is the RIGHT choice?” and just stay at the door.
Also servers with poorly written rules don’t help (example: mstdn.mx says porn and politics are forbidden, but in reality they allow them as long as you tag then properly).
These kind of posts don’t help either, because it makes people feel like they are too stupid to join and rather stick to the known services, but omit all the actual process that someone has to go through.
to the people who read all the things it’s tedious but doable, for the rest it’s “Which one is the RIGHT choice?” and just stay at the door
Exactly. I’m a programmer and I do server administration on a small scale, but when I went to sign up for Mastodon my first reaction was, “How the hell am I supposed to know what instance I want my account to be on?” and I left. After a couple of weeks of absorbing random bits of information about how federation works I went back and completed the account creation process, but I really doubt that the average user who just wants to sign up for a service and use it is going to get past that step.
Apps need to automatically assign users randomly to one of the non-controversial general instances, and letting them change it if they want.
Lemmy and other fediverse clients need to do this too imo
I agree. The information should be easily available if they are interested, but end users shouldn’t be required to know about the underlying mechanics of the fediverse simply in order to create an account and browse.
I think the trickiest part is finding people on other instances and needing to copy/paste their links in your home instance’s search bar before you can follow or reblog, especially if you’re following a link someone’s shared elsewhere. It’s a small nuisance, but it adds up over time, and it’s already more work than most social media consumers want to bother with. For Mastodon to truly take off, that needs to be automated or hidden, because most people are going to give up before they even get an explanation.
Is this a troll post? There are multiple shortfalls that make Mastodon harder to use than twitter for the average user. Here’s a great Op-ed explaining them: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/06/op-ed-why-the-great-twittermigration-didnt-quite-pan-out/
The tl;dr is that decentralization is no selling point for the average user and if the experience using Mastodon is any worse than using Twitter, people simply won’t switch. And there are numerous big issues with Mastodon’s usability that make it inferior to Twitter: That there is no proper way of exploring creators, that following creators is a hot mess, that Mastodon instances can block each other and thus make it impossible for their users to interact with each other. All those drawbacks come from being decentralized, while the only positive, not being ruled by a billionaire man-child, clearly doesn’t bother people as much.
100%. People here don’t think user experience and accessibility is important. Very weird attitude.
accessibility
Case in point: Quotes look too similar to nested comments.
The average user also wants to have content shoved into their face with zero effort. There is a little effort to find content on mastodon and Lemmy.
I disagree. I’m super tech savy. It takes time to understand Lemmy etc. and get what you want. I’m not against this, but let’s be realistic, it isn’t as easy as Reddit for example. This is fact not opinion…
I haven’t been using it very long but I have not noticed any significant differences with Reddit for Lemmy. It seems exactly the same. You sign up, there’s default posts and there’s your personal feed where you can add and remove subs. Content is shoved in your face with zero effort. Response notifications in the top right. What is harder about it?
Personally I thought first impressions of Mastodon (and Lemmy) were abysmal. Being told to pick a server without knowing what that means or the consequences of that choice just scares people away. Unless someone has a specific server in mind they should not even be asked to pick one. Instead a number of existing servers should volunteer as curated core servers and new users are automatically assigned to one of those. There can still be a “let me choose” link that goes to a full list of servers if they prefer to browse them all
Pick randomly fir a new user, and make it possible to migrate later.
I think this is a decent take. Maybe certain trusted servers can opt to be “default” servers and new users signing up on mastodon’s default homepage are round-robbin’d into them. This can create a large burden of moderation on servers that opt into this, but it would be well worth it to turn mastodon into a user-friendly platform
Sounds like a good way. I have to admit, signing up for mastodon was a confusing mindfuck, and I’m not anything close to tech-illiterate as a reporter, and it’s mainly because of the process. It’s seriously crippled adoption.
people -> create content -> engages (including share) -> bring people -> create
same! I’m super tech-literate and I had real trouble choosing a server. and before that I had trouble understanding exactly what it meant (though the email analogy goes a long way). And of course I ended up regretting the server I chose and am in the process of migrating 😓
It’s apparently easy to migrate between mastodon instances, it’s an option under the Settings page, so they already got that covered.
After installing both of those I ended up setting them aside for a few days because of this. I’m glad I made time to work it out but yeah, Installing and signing up are not the issues.
The problem is the paradox of “it doesn’t matter what server you pick” while also giving them a choice.
If choices don’t matter, why have a choice?
Although I disagree that it doesn’t matter
No choice doesn’t matterat all. However, the decision on which mastodon server to use for your social media is about as important as what you’ll choose to eat today for dinner. Yeah, kinda important for the dinner itself and you don’t want some crap, but if you do, you could just eat it anyway for now and try something else tomorrow.
It does affect your experience.
Joining a server with a small number of people vs a bunch will impact your initial experience and how fast you branch out
It’s not anything that can’t be overcome but let’s not pretend every user understands how to expand their network
When you pick “federated” you’ll see all posts, independent from your instance. But that’s pretty much impossible because unless you have Tusky the posts will be too fast.
So yeah, to be able to read anything you have to just read the posts on your instance, meaning it does matter which one you pick.
or we make a few accounts on a few different servers.
we don’t need to identify with our fediverse accounts.
There is no functional account migration, therefore your choice matter unless you think what you write doesn’t matter, in which case, why write at all ?
It’s very long standing issue, first issue was closed as completed but not complete
Exactly. It just saves you the step of refollowing. Not a value-less feature, but my own posts matter to me too.
If an instance is shutting down I can migrate and keep ally followers but I’ll just be at zero again for content. Not a good situation
Your follows maybe, but not who is following you. You become nobody again.
Account moves are supposed to trigger an unfollow of your old account and following of your new account so long as whichever software your followers are using supports it (I’m assuming Mastodon does since it’s in their docs, not sure about Misskey, Calckey, etc).
Account redirection which is a like an HTTP 302 redirect (as opposed to 301) however, does not do this, or copy who you’re following AFAIK.
Are relationships transparently preserved ?
Apologies, my familiarity with some of the terms of Mastodon are still a bit rough around the edges. By relationships, do you mean your followers and who you follow?
If so, it does seem like your followers is preserved (so long as nothing inhibits the move signal), as for who you follow its not clear on the docs whether that is preserved or not (and I’ve not done an account move of my own) - but you can export a list of who you’re following from your account preferences, and then reimport it on your new account for sure.
I don’t know exactly the mechanic of current migration, I just know it’s not good enough.
One thing I don’t get. Among the gazilion “Oh, it is sooo easy to do this better” complainers are countless developers and designers. This whole Mastodon thing is Free Software, where countless people spent some of their free time and energy to give you what there is today. Complainer devs and UX folks, are your PR’s getting rejected?
Not much point in writing a PR if the idea has already been rejected (or is still hotly contested) in the issues. Most of the suggestions aren’t just write-some-code solutions, they’re design decisions, and if the project owner doesn’t agree with that decision? Well, you can fork it like glitch-soc or hometown, or you can use another project that already does what you want (but doesn’t have as much traction), or you can keep trying to convince the people running the project to accept your idea. Even quote posts, which they’re finally coming around to grudgingly accept as a possible feature, involve a lot of decisions on which posts can be quoted, who gets notified, etc.
So… Someone deluded says it’s super easy to sign up.
Someone points out that it’s really not for a non technical person. Let’s say that someone is me, and let’s say I’m a developer.
Is it suddenly my problem? Is it now my responsibility to fix it? I already have enough problems and responsibilities, thank you. I’m already busy with work and life. I got my own things I’m working on.
Fuck off with that attitude.
There’s no responsibility at all. There’s also full freedom to complain however you wish. If you do that on someone’s free work with which they try to help others, it just doesn’t look very good on you. That’s all.
it just doesn’t look very good on you
Why not? Over the years I’ve had several open source projects. I’ve had many suggestions and complaints. If someone wanted to help and contribute I’d be happy, and help them if I could, but never have I expected anything. On the contrary I’ve been happy for complaints that made sense, because it gave me pointers and places to improve my software. So why do you think it doesn’t look good?
Oh, that kind is good. Constructive feedback is very valuable. But the fediverse is full of people dropping derogatory sarcastic comments or even reacting in rage, that aren’t helpful in the slightest. I should’ve made that clearer in my first comment.
I made ana count on some mastodon instance. It wasnt a deliberate decision, I just picked one that seemed interesting from a list. That’s what people recommended: find a small instance, don’t go to the big ones. Well now I don’t know what the instance was called, so I can’t log back in because I don’t know how to find it again.
When I went to try Lemmy I made of point of signing up for the biggest, most popular, instance, and I can use it in a straight forward way without worrying too much about federation. In general though Lemmy has been much more straightforward than Mastodon, which I gave up on after about 3 days, and then never used again because I couldn’t remember where I had registered.
Use a password manager and store the url with the username/password.
I know the username and password, I forgot the instance. I registered through an app so the login details were saved on my keychain but the keychain points to the app, not the instance.
I’m not saying I can’t figure it out and do it better next time, but on Twitter if you forget your password you just push a button and then reset it. On mastodon if you forget your instance you’re SOL. With Lemmy I know I’m on the big main instance and it’s not a concern anymore.
People are educated to not learn too much.
