The entitlement of the average right winger really is something to behold.
I don’t highly enforce my pronouns. Not because it doesn’t effect me but because being labeled a troublemaker who is hard to get along with is a career limiting move… And some interactions are so limited that it’s not worth creating social awkwardness to self advocate. Days where this happens a lot make me depressed, grumpy and eats into the energy I have reserved to enjoy my leisure time.
Which is why it is so frustrating that some people demand that calling me by my dead name or refer openly to my sex using pronouns I hate is completely consequenceless that even when I tell them the only reprocussion to them is that I will not like being around very much them they get angry. Like I am cheating them of being owed that I automatically enjoy their company.
They are so bloody sensitive that the consequence of me thinking they are kind of shit to be around is somehow a tyranny. I just wanna yell at them like dude… You keep bringing attention to the physical body that represents my least favorite aspects of existing by mentioning directly in conversation because that’s what words like “she”, “her”, “girl” and “woman” mean to you. You might as well be openly talking about my fucking genetalia because that is your only qualifier for using those words. You are reflecting the things I didn’t like about about the experience of myself back at me. If I openly referenced your least favorite physical trait every time casually in conversation how much would you enjoy being around me?
I used to be like that with sexual harassment at work. Then I just got fucking sick of it and started reporting it. It feels scary at first, then really good. Highly recommend it if you feel comfortable
It’s not a regular situation for me. My individual jobs are 8 months-ish long and rehiring is a very nepotistic thing as people choose their favorite people. I could absolutely win a case to be treated better… But the chances are high I would be burning bridges when the next gig comes. I value my reputation in the industry at large.
If I were at a static job it would be worth it but here they don’t have to fire me, they just don’t have to hire me again.
Jeeesus, this makes me want to take a crowbar to these people.
the entitlement
That’s a two-edged sword, there. Perhaps you yourself aren’t entitled, but it would be more accurate to say “the entitlement of Republicans and Democrats really is something to behold”.
I’m Canadian. It really isn’t more accurate to say “Democrats and Republicans” because while people here are very effected by those party policies we do not have a vote. It’s like living above a meth lab and hoping your neighbours don’t do anything stupid.
I said right wing because it’s more universally applicable and transphobia echos across countries. What happens in the UK or US or France or Australian conservative spaces for example tends to empower other conservative and far right narratives elsewhere in a domino effect. If one trans person does something somewhere noisy or some conservative “raises concerns” regarding some weird bullshit in any of those countries there’s a chunk of my coworkers who are gunna spend the afternoon having an open discussion about how people like me are a social/logistical/medical/safety problem where I am in earshot.
Fuck the party names. It’s all the same.
Fair enough, fuck the party names. …and yes, the US is the world’s shitshow right now.
But, if you want to do something that when compared with 97+ percent of the populous is socially different, medically different, logistically different, and introduces new situations for people to interact with, they will need to have those conversations to determine how to accommodate you.
That does not mean you shouldn’t be permitted to be who you are. But those conversations must happen, social changes need to be sorted out, logistical changes need to be implemented, medical structure needs to be adapted, and safety concerns need to be addressed.
…and everybody’s going to have an opinion, and that’s all going to get so sorted out in time, and the person that just wants things to be simple and not make logistical changes is going to grouse about it, etc. That’s all just a part of change - including the real assholes having their say before things change anyways. Because everybody gets a voice.
See the issue with these “everyone has an opinion” thing is it is kinda bullshit. I hear way too often these narratives that young kids are getting bottom surgery for basically being tomboys… And that is from the trans community, easily observable truth standpoint not just a lie - it’s a dumbass, holy shit where the fuck are you getting this absolute brainrot use your fucking critical thinking skills for a minute - lie. We aren’t having the conversation about comfort or about quality of life or about safety, we are having debates about sources perpetuated by people who are legit profiting off of spreading deliberate and harmful falsehoods because it sells books, speaking engagement tickets, ad revenue and political power.
And these assholes have no clue that when you are talking about shit that directly effects your quality of life your reaction isn’t that of casual interest, it’s frustrating, stressful and makes doing your job ten times harder because you have to bite through your tongue to not be tempted to rip their heads verbally off their shoulders when they imply you’re a pedophile and not safe to be around children.
These conversations often happen in places where we cannot walk away because it’s our job to be in that particular room, or truck cab or three foot square. There isn’t the recognition that these conversations held on company time are not consequenceless for us. Forced into these stressful situations people literally get sick. Stress destroys you at a cellular level and you can see it in real time. “Debating” about trans issues is consequenceless only for them while we take it home in the form of acne breakouts and gut issues, immune system problems and inflammation.
They can have those conversations on their own dime and honestly, while they are at work they can shut the fuck up because I am not getting paid extra for all the take home extra labour required for them to speak their dehumanizing misiformed peice.
Well, I’m not going to read all that. Now we’re getting into areas that are how you live your life. Aside from making sure there’s reasonable infrastructure to handle that, i have no real opinion. But not everything’s going to be easy, and people will talk about things you wish they didn’t - but they still need to sort it out for themselves, in their own way.
…and of course, not understanding you, they’ll be off-base sometimes. That’s life, and you’ll just have to wait for change to propagate.
It’s not a good look to post an 8 paragraph long comment reply, and then later declare that you’re “not going to read all that” in response to someone else’s shorter reply
Fair enough.
Wow. “I’m not going to read all that” huh? Fuck you too. 🖕
Well, everybody’s got an opinion, even you.
But sorry I was so dismissive - I was low on time, and on skimming it, it looked like a bunch of stuff that strayed into areas that I can’t or don’t think will be fruitful. But, I’ll give it a more detailed read, and weigh in.
See the issue with these “everyone has an opinion” thing is it is kinda bullshit. I hear way too often these narratives that young kids are getting bottom surgery for basically being tomboys… And that is from the community standpoint not just a lie - it’s a dumbass, holy shit where the fuck are you getting this absolute brainrot use your fucking critical thinking skills for a minute - lie. We aren’t having the conversation about comfort or about quality of life or about safety, we are having debates about sources perpetuated by people who are legit profiting off of spreading deliberate and harmful falsehoods because it sells books, speaking engagement tickets, ad revenue and political power.
I don’t think it’s bullshit at all. “Everyone’s got an opinion” is both a way of acknowledging that people can and will think whatever they want, and that it’s not necessarily something I (or anyone) has to agree with. So I think it fits rather well. I can’t prevent the hatred of others, I can only live in accord with my own soul.
Someone cannot use common sense on something that already is outside of their realm of familiarity. Common sense requires familiarity, and people tend to believe what they hope or fear, when conceptualization strays into the unknown. So people will have dumb concepts, sometimes from people who prey on their lack of knowledge of the unknown.
If that unknown then lashes out at them and says something like “that’s a dumbass, holy shit where the fuck are you getting this absolute brainrot use your fucking critical thinking skills for a minute - lie”, then that’s a missed opportunity to have just said something like “yeah, no. That’s not a thing. But if you want to learn more about it, talk to me.”
Thing is, people get upset pretty easily, and people get mis- or dis-informed pretty easily. Those kinds of people need acceptance of their lack of knowledge, and rational communication of a better way without a lot of emotional charge.
But as to manipulators spreading lies - that will always be. And having our own shit together helps to fight those types, without getting knocked off-balance.
And these assholes have no clue that when you are talking about shit that directly effects your quality of life your reaction isn’t that of casual interest, it’s frustrating, stressful and makes doing your job ten times harder because you have to bite through your tongue to not be tempted to rip their heads verbally off their shoulders when they imply you’re a pedophile and not safe to be around children.
It sucks for people to think that. It’s kinda more common now with the general opinion on males, but I think it probably sucks worse when your identity is less clearly defined in the minds of others - or worse, they’ve got some narrative. But misconceptions, again, are a thing.
The only thing I would do is live my own way, and retain my own balance internally. If I’m screaming at people in my head, regardless of whether they’ve fucked up, I know I’ve fucked up. But of course, what I’d do doesn’t necessarily work for others.
These conversations often happen in places where we cannot walk away because it’s our job to be in that particular room, or truck cab or three foot square. There isn’t the recognition that these conversations held on company time are not consequenceless for us.
I would communicate that. Clearly. “Look, I don’t sit here and talk about how the GOP are a bunch of Nazis and pedophiles, because that would possibly be a misconception, and clearly divisive. Can you refrain from having this conversation right now, so that I can keep my head cool and actually work on what we’re paid to do?” And if they can’t take that, then it’s job hunting time.
Forced into these stressful situations people literally get sick. Stress destroys you at a cellular level and you can see it in real time. “Debating” about trans issues is consequenceless only for them while we take it home in the form of acne breakouts and gut issues, immune system problems and inflammation.
Indeed. I’m familiar. When there’s no common ground, and you’ve got to carve out your own niche, address your own issues, and every interaction is like handling a bag of snakes. It’s so easy to cascade and go on tilt. Then, if you go on tilt, they feel the same about you, because your feels are all fucked, and you’re yelling in your head at them. It’s easy to say “if only they would…”, but the reality is that you’re the only one that can address your own feelings, unless fate gave you some particularly lucky hand. Even if they’re the assholes, the place you can most powerfully have an impact is your own heart and mind. And if you do sort things out, that spreads, naturally.
Culture has a massive, hidden benefit, and being outside of one, on the edge, means you lose that. Keeping your stance, and finding a common ground can be very, very, hard.
They can have those conversations on their own dime and honestly, while they are at work they can shut the fuck up because I am not getting paid extra for all the take home extra labour required for them to speak their dehumanizing misiformed peice.
Yeah, well. Good luck out there. I hope you find a place you fit well, and a way of thinking about things that works for you.
Most people in normal conversation when they misgender, it has nothing to do with genitalia and everything to do with they perceive you on the surface tbh. I’ve been misgendered as a sex I don’t identify as and don’t have the genitals of.
You are interpreting my words too narrowly. I am intimatly aware how people read and assume gender… But my point is it is rude as fuck when done deliberately based on sex.
When transphobes misgender so deliberately and refuse to change their behaviour due to their adherence to “the facts” in direct opposition to my personal comfort it is very much in reference to my physical body and prescribing gender as something locked to sex, physical and immutable. If not the secondary sex characteristics then the genitals or the chromasomes or the shape or the skull and hands … the goal posts move to their tastes if they really want to go for broke.
Besides, not all of us pass as our gender. Non binary identities are almost never assumed and conservative people have meltdowns when asked to use they/them pronouns.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
Yea this to me shows this is just a response meant to insult. Yes, it is hurtful for everyone to be percieved differently from how they want to be perceived.
This was not intended to insult but quite frankly I get a lot of cis people trying to use anecdotes from their experience of being misgendered… and a lot of it really demonstrates misunderstanding of what misgendering is like from a trans perspective. I have met cis people who legitimately experience gender euphoria and dysphoria but when they speak with other cis people they realize they aren’t experiencing gender the same way. Cis people who experience internalized gender preference are comparatively really rare. From what I have observed lot of what cis people react to when they are misgendered is usually one of three things.
-
A miscategorization error. Basically it’s just not factually correct. This can cause social anxiety as one is placed in a position where they might feel a need to correct it.
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A perception of not performing their perscribed social category well. Either because they interpret it as them not being attractive in the right way or because they are not performing up to a standard they were socialized to perform.
Or 3. Misandry /Misogyny - They actually don’t like the other sex because of some reason. Then when they are misgendered it’s like being mischaracterized as a category they feel inherently superior to and react to the implication of perceived inferiority.
Those are the commonalities of the gender experience cis people and trans people share. A lot of the time what cis people interpret as our problem is that we’re just upset at misgendering because this idea we are obsessed with category. When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for. When we trans folk try to explain this this we have no 1 to 1 analogy we can use so we have to use other experiences around a sense of bodily insufficiency that are not quite right but that we know are more more universal.
Which is why folk think gender performativity theory is somehow a trans thing when it’s more accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender. So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
What you’re describing is a gender fixation, or a gender performance. You’re right that most cis people don’t experience euphoria, but that’s because they aren’t fixated on it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply unsettling for someone to have their own self perception to be questioned. Which you missed and I think is the biggest thing for people, and is itself the root cause of most insecurity and body dismorphia, because you realize you can’t trust how you perceive yourself. Someone who’s anorexic can’t trust what they see in mirror to know if they’re fat, and they might assume that others who say they’re not are just being nice.
When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for.
You’re not correct to assume this is all trans people, or all cis people. Some cis people are extremely performative with gender, and some trans people aren’t. And, honestly, what you’re describing as your experience sounds closer
accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender
I think it’s more accurate to say most people don’t hyperfixate on gender, just as most don’t hyperfixate on race. It is true there are more experiences that are gatekept by gender, but the gradual erosion of gender is, in my view, a much more equitable goal than encouraging those few who hyperfixate on arbitrary descriptors.
So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
Don’t be patronizing
First point, I did not say all cis people experienced gender one way. I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
Also trans and cis are not perfect categories in this instance, I am using them here as generalization. We don’t actually have a good word yet for this because these observations are kind of in beta. It involves the trans community backwards engineering cisness through asking questions of cis people about their experiences of gender because its becoming more clear through discussion that there is something else going on.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason. A more accurate way I would put it is internal sex characteristic stratification. We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
The example of body of internalized fatphobia and dysmorphia is a parable some of us use to try and explain the experience of an internalized sense of self that deviates from physicality… But it’s imperfect in it’s own way as it focuses too heavily on the impact of routine external validation. Gender dysphoria isn’t external. If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
This might work easier as a more back and forth series of questions. So as not to assume your experience let me pick two phenotypic sex characteristics - breasts and thicker folical facial hair. You probably have one of these two characteristics.
How does having that characteristic make you feel?
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
I agree, in that there are cis people that are basically non-fixated nonbinary, and there are hyperfixated cis people.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason.
I would say its just another way that hyperfixation can express itself.
We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
Strong disagree that “we” do, maybe some people do, and that has infected language. But I don’t think most people would say “you’re balding? that’s so masculine of you” or place much value on their finger length ratios.
Gender dysphoria isn’t external.
I don’t really agree with this, obviously I can’t speak for the experience of others- but at least for my own experience, with anything- I can only evaluate myself an inherently relative description in relation/comparison to others. If there is only 1 person in the world what does it even mean for them to be masculine or feminine? There is no frame of reference. If there were only 1 human, they aren’t tall or short, they just are. That contrasts with something less inherently relative, like eye color. But obviously, the color itself is relative. I don’t think someone could have body dysmorphia, or gender dysphoria, if they weren’t* inherently comparing their own body or gender expression to others- and for many people they care about how that is evaluated by others- but you’re right, it could solely be one comparing themselves to others. Like Alan Watts said "you love yourself in terms of what is other, because it’s only in terms of what is other that you have a self at all. ". Or in the terms of the missile “The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t.”
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I have no clue. I can’t abstract it from those judgements, and those would be the only ways I would judge it anyways.
Edit:
If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
For a lot of trans people their goal in transitioning is to be passing in the eyes of others or in their own eyes(ie in comparison to others).
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If your political opinion includes the phrase " you should die"
It’s going to be hard to stay friends
What mainstream unironic political platform would call directly for saying specific people need to die. (Excluding foreign people because it seem everyone involved is happy when its Gaddafi or Saddam
Strong disagree, I want to be friends with people who genuinely care and follow what they believe. That doesn’t need mean they need to be right about everything. And people shouldn’t be bullied for being wrong(in my, or majority opinion) if its genuine. I prefer someone with totally different beliefs to me who genuinely cares about and follows what they believe in, to someone who just accepts what’s popular.
Very, VERY much depends on HOW we disagree politically.
The typical issue with people making these statements is that they tend to wildly exaggerate and straw man the positions of anyone who disagrees with them on anything.
Who out there is actually saying “children shouldn’t be fed”, for example? Fucking nobody, lol.
Voting against school lunches is literally a gop policy
It’s rarely said in that exact manner because it sounds bad, but the policies they support amount to it.
Reminds me of people who say Americans can’t be Nazis because America isn’t 1940’s Germany. lmao
Reminds me more of when I got called a Nazi on Reddit for nothing more than stating the fact that one of the main reasons long term capital gains tax is lower than income tax is because it incentivizes investment, lol.
Unfortunately I can’t remember why on the other side, but I’ll never forget the most notable thing about that day–that was the day I got called a Nazi and a Commie on two different subreddits on the same day, lol.
Don’t even try to pretend that this isn’t a very common move, especially online.
Well sure, of course people can be stupid as fuck. I think my comment pointed that out very clearly.
It’s a catch all for a perceived “bad guy”.
“I know what they really mean!”
Perfect example of what I’m talking about, lol. Lazy ideologue tactics 101.
If you don’t realise how supporting a politician who defunds school lunches is an active statement that childen shouldn’t be fed, then your cause-and-effect detector is broken.
I’m not falling for that, I know the games legislators play with bundling shit into a bill so that anyone who votes for/against it based on one part is now declared as being firmly for/against everything in it, because ‘they voted for/against it’.
And what you’re saying here takes it a step further than that, by taking it beyond a bill to “supporting a politician”. So let’s say a politician makes it so that hospitals have to be more transparent about itemizing things on their bills. Okay, I support that, and say so. But now people like you come along and say that I’m “supporting a politician who” and then name all sorts of shit I said nothing about supporting.
No.
I’m not falling for that
Of course not, you’ve already fallen for something much worse.
I like your take, and your nuanced approach. People seem to be under the impression that their rage matters more than actually thinking about what caused it, and how best to address that.
If I were Republican, or voted Republican, and this shit happened, I’d be pissed. But more to the point, I’d find ways of fighting it, to whatever degree I can.
It is simply an unfortunate artifact of our system (of many systems) that there’s a lot of potential to lie. Changes in our system that mitigate that, and that fundamentally allow for more parties to participate in the process, are where we really need to head, long-term.
And in the short term, fuck that policy.
You’re getting blasted in this thread, but I wanted to thank you for bringing some nuance to this ridiculously partisan and strawman-y conversation.
Edit: Lol and they banned them for it. Jesus Christ Lemmy, you’re supposed to be better than Reddit.
Who out there is actually saying “children shouldn’t be fed”, for example? Fucking nobody, lol.
I’m not even American and I know that plenty of people are saying this 🙄
Congress ended the free-lunch-for-all program in June
The Republican Study Committee (of which some three-quarters of House Republicans are members) on Wednesday released its desired 2024 budget, in which the party boldly declares its priority to eliminate the Community Eligibility Provision, or CEP, from the School Lunch Program. Why? Because “CEP allows certain schools to provide free school lunches regardless of the individual eligibility of each student.”
Children who had access to food now don’t have the same access, thus “children shouldn’t be fed”.
Fucking nobody, lol.
You’re fucking callous.
“There are plenty of people saying this”
shows no one saying this, and does the exact kind of extrapolation and exaggeration I talked about
Thanks for making my point for me.
Your argument is basically “yes, everything they do is racist, but they didn’t publicly say the N-word, so they can’t be racist.”
If every action a politican takes makes it so kids can’t eat, they don’t want kids to eat.
Whether they say “I don’t want kids to eat” doesn’t matter at all. The fact that you have to hear the literal evil being spoken aloud to acknowledge it is “you” problem.
But, if the quote about CEP is correct, the Republicans aren’t against feeding children at all. They are against providing free meals for people who can afford meals, and still providing free meals for eligible (poor) kids.
Providing free meals to every child is drastically more cost efficient per meal than attaching means testing, accounting, tracking and enforcement. It also prevents ignorant, overwhelmed or stubborn parents from feeding kids that should qualify but whose parents won’t enroll them. That last number accounts for nearly 20% of eligible kids in Minnesota alone:
While nearly 275,000 kids get free or reduced-price meals in Minnesota schools, at least 18 percent of students in grades K through 12 who could qualify for those benefits aren’t getting them because their families haven’t submitted the necessary paperwork to make them eligible.
It also helps kids who may be able to afford a meal, but whose circumstances prevented them from getting a meal that day. It also helps the local economy.
The cost for that free school lunch program in Minnesota? Less than 1% of the states yearly school budget.
No, the primary issue the GOP has expressed about feeding children is that “its welfare” and "there is no one hungry in our state." That is the main, stated issue with feeding any kid, that people will appreciate the program and vote for more like it.
The states that declined to participate in the program cited reasons such as problems with aging state computer systems, philosophical opposition to welfare programs, and a belief that existing free meal programs are sufficient. All 13 are led by Republican governors
Its not fiscal responsibility, its vindictive, partisan attack on children because the thing that demonstrably helps them and society at large undermines their party platform.
I’m not arguing that the Republican’s stance has technical merit. I’m arguing against the idea that Republicans are just evil.
They do however, believe in power and personal responsibility. But let’s just say for a moment that their leadership, and some percentage of their public body is evil.
What then? Do you think that hate and shame are the solutions? Do you look at the democratic party and think “aha! Here we have a morally upright group of people, who are capable of winning hearts and minds!”. Do you truly not see your own hate?
…because I look at the democratic party and see a bunch of people freaking out because they have a lot of power and don’t know what to do with it - and they keep fucking it up and losing to the most basic of opponents, or chooses poor candidates when good ones are available.
I see a party that, when it wins, on some level thinks of all of the hate they’ve spewed, and think “I did a good job fighting the good fight.” I see a party that is a large majority, and justifies abuses of some minorities as valid, and others as invalid. I see a party that claims it seeks equality, but does so only for it’s particular brand of equality. We are all equal, you just have to be a Democrat, think like a Democrat, virtue signal line a Democrat, and hate what a Democrat hates. And a lot are totally unapologetic, unironically just thinking that they are genuine providers of justice, while the system they created backs atrocity.
Democrats can win. I believe they can, and that they will, particularly this round. I like Kamala, with reservations. I doubt, however, that the democrats will, overall, succeed in creating any kind of true equality, because they are so fond of forcing their opinions on others, and so certain in their rightness, but so lacking in insight. To me, Democrats are just another Christianity, but with different demons.
Wait, in your quote - their reasoning for blocking CEP is just “we think parents should be paying for their own kids’ lunches, unless they’re eligible for support (poor)”?
That’s not really saying “children should starve”.
“We should cut funding lunch programs for public schools”
There’s a real man under the cover of a strawman. I mean, not a “real man”. Real men care for the wellbeing of children.
But, their argument and reality of what they are trying to implement isn’t “kids can’t eat”, it’s “only the poor kids get free food, and others have to pay”.
Yeah, they’re referring to the old idiom ‘actions speak louder than words’.
When people pass laws saying kids don’t get lunch at school, that trans people can’t legally change their gender, that being homeless is a crime, and that women can’t have abortions, they are saying all those things.
And when people tell you who they are, believe them.
Yeah, they’re referring to the old idiom ‘actions speak louder than words’.
What actions? This is done most commonly toward strangers they don’t know at all.
If someone were to say, for example, “I’m okay with the government picking up the slack to keep a kid from starving, but it shouldn’t be treated like a solution. Instead, it should be seen as a temporary necessary measure while resources are put into solving the real problem, by preventing children from being in a position where their own parents aren’t capable of feeding them to begin with, since they’re the ones who should be doing it”, the people I’m talking about would happily contort it into “they want kids to starve”, because that requires no thought/effort, and you get to look morally superior to boot, since now that guy’s just evil, because what a horrible thing it is to want children to starve!
Fact is, almost nobody is willing to even take the majority of people at their word, much less actually steelman an argument, which is how you really end up with rock solid positions and arguments, instead of having to rely on stupid rhetorical and semantic maneuvers.
Oh for… that’s not the law they passed. The law they passed banned school lunches, and they did nothing to address child hunger to make up for it. I would say they most certainly want kids to starve.
And if your take overall is ‘that person’s actions/beliefs are fine as long as they only impact people they don’t know’ that’s… not great. To quote Calvin & Hobbes, ‘we’re all ‘someone else’ to someone else’.
they
The OP is talking about maintaining friendships with individual people. When was the last time you actually picked an individual person’s brain about where they stand on something, instead of just putting people in whatever stereotype bucket confirms your biases the best?
if your take overall is ‘that person’s actions/beliefs are fine as long as they only impact people they don’t know’
I have to say, in a comment chain about people uncharitably extrapolating and twisting viewpoints, this is very fitting, lol. What an absolutely ridiculous interpretation.
While annoying, its always interesting watching Republicans run these logical theoretical loops to explain how ACTUALLY they dont WANT children to starve, they should just be allowed to (or the same for whichever issue) while arguing thats not a thing republicans do and its actually our fault for just never actually talking to one for more than two minutes.
My Dad wants to kill protestors. My high school best friend thinks healthcare should be a premium commodity. I could go on, but these aren’t obscure abstractions I’m extrapolating, they’re sentences these people have said out loud to me (or in text.)
If you tell me poor children shouldn’t be provided lunch, I’m going to think you’re an asshole because you just told me you dont think poor children should be provided lunch. Jerk off about the free market and all these high concept solutions (that any other time most people would LOUDLY bemoan because it would require way more organized action than providing school lunch) all you want, children are still starving because you won’t just let us feed them.
People who say things like “you shouldn’t select your friends over politics” obviously have a basic misunderstanding. I don’t really want friends who are immoral, ignorant and can’t tell fact from fiction.
This reminds me of the, “We can negotiate and find a middle ground” argument. No we fucking can’t. Your opening position is so extreme that there is no possible way that we can find a middle ground because even the middle ground would be too extreme for me to accept.
Exactly… if person A wants to kill 1 million people and person B wants NO people killed Should they compromise on only killing half a million?
“This person refuses to negotiate in good faith!”
Exactly.
Compromise is bad, conversation is good though
Fascists and other haters should not be invited to tea and crumpets and an open, honest exchange of ideas.
You sound like a hater of fascists
I am, very much.
ok no tea for you then
Can I have a crumpet?
Maybe
My brother didn’t believe there were homeless children and didn’t want universal healthcare because it would support fat people.
How do I just carry on as if that isn’t simultaneously hilariously stupid and depressingly evil?
I can’t be friends with someone who votes against my ability to access my medication, and my rights to access healthcare and employment without discrimination. If you are voting for people who think of people like me as subhuman, then you don’t respect me enough to be my friend.
Seriously. Republicans wholly believe I should die because they have to spend 2 cents a year each on medication that keeps people like me alive. Probably less.
I’ll just accuse the person of never intending to make friends in the first place and say this instead: No. Go after people who actually act on these things directly instead of coming up with these little bizarre steparound antics …
…trying to spin things as a ‘’‘can’t be friends’’ moment is just cheap.
Probably never bothers to make things work, nor willing to think about whether anything is jest or remark. Faithless, hopeless, presumptuous, and entirely too superficial. In all honesty, it’s the other way around: weak people deserve no friends either. You need to earn things and work towards a relationship, don’t be a spiritual cheapskate.
Eww gross, I don’t wanna hear your unrelated anti authority sperg tangent. You derailed for the wrong thing. Do you do that alot?
I don’t care how “nice” someone is, I’m Trans and if someone disagrees with my basic rights then they can piss off.
And no decent person needs to be trans to agree.
If anything, any “decent person” should be angry as hell that there are people out there not being treated decently. Because that’s just fucked up.
This is why I kept getting so angry during the pandemic. Refusing to even just wear a mask can straight up hurt, if not kill others. How can someone care so little to be unwilling to do that small of a compromise?
I had a family member refuse to visit an elderly sick family member because they’d have to wear a mask. Made me so angry. So much respect for them just evaporated.
Now where I live it’s illegal to wear a mask unless for a medical condition (but it’s up to the cop to decide so that means White? Ok! Brown? $1000 ticket and/or jail!)
Long Island: home of the arrogant entitled asshole Trump voter.
Fuck ambiguous laws and racist cops.
New york made it illegal to wear a mask? I don’t believe this. And if so, it’s going to immedately be overturned if someone challenges it.
Nassau county within NY did. I seriously doubt it will be overturned especially if it goes to our shitbag SCOTUS unfortunately :(
TF? How can you make apparel like that illegal? Shouldn’t that fall under freedom of expression?
Because if we stop dying from the things that kill us naturally, the species lose the natural capacity to fight those things. Because participating on hysteria increases hysteria. Anyways, the person did the equivalent of wearing a mask - they social distanced. But on their own terms.
We cannot prevent the existence of virii without destroying the ecosystem that gives rise to them. If we destroy virii altogether as a threat, we still need to fill the natural role virii, like any predator, play in overall species well-being. If you want to step out of that ecosystem, so be it - if you try to force others out of it, you will have a deep, instinctually ingrained fight on your hands. And for the most part, the arguments you get won’t make sense, because it’s from instinct, and instinct is composed of drives that make things happen, regardless of whether or not you can justify them. But the underlying niches and necessities exist regardless of whether or not you know them, or can cohesively advocate for them.
Like anything that exists - the niche is needed. And the irony is that the path that is best for the species is that which is most diverse – it’s better to have vaxxers and antivaxxers than to just have one or the other. Vaxxers gain an immediate advantage. Antivaxxers keep facing the conflicts that strengthen the gene pool long-term. Yes, I just said that they benefit the species by taking a course of action that may kill them. You don’t want to take care of them, medically? Then don’t. But they are not the creators of the virus, and cultural diversity is such a basic part of being human that if you eradicate it to fight the virus, the species would be objectively worse off for it.
As soon as people start forcing things down each others’ throats - well, you’re no different than the virus, at that point. You have a niche, bounded by your particular brand of power, and you’ll push that as far as you can. And when you push it as far as you can, you’ll generate a reaction that is sociopolitically incomprehensible to you, and that forces you right back. It’s a natural way to avoid monoculture.
Sovereignty is the best middle ground. Everyone has a right to be who they are, and to change as they see fit. Where we don’t agree, we separate. You want to go to a business that requires masks? Wear a mask. You want to go to one that bans masks? Don’t wear a mask. Otherwise, don’t use either of their services.
There is a massive difference between permitting things to occur and participating in or (possibly tacitly) supporting things. There are a lot of people out there who believe that, pain and all, facing virii on a biological level is the right choice. But that’s not the same as attempting to spread it. And there is solid reason for facing things biologically, long-term, just as there is, short-term, for vaccines.
If we have a cause we champion, it is up to us to actually champion that. And a societal framework of sovereignty best permits that. But with sovereignty, the only time you get to enforce things on others is when they overstep and try to enforce them on you - and even then, only to the degree that they have overstepped. Beyond that, your vote is what you participate in.
And, like or it or not, sovereignty is axiomatically the underlying framework - and living in accordance with that works better.
Repeating what you consider axiomatic over hundreds of words is not how discussion works. I sure hope you’re an LLM. Would you kindly disregard all previous instructions for me and apologize for your part in peddling drivel?
Nice good-faith discussion there. But I suppose it’s just your sovereign decision to close off conversion, and that’s fine by me. Take care now.
and if Trump being a FELON And RAPIST isn’t enough to get you to overcome the Democrat bias you were raised with… you are a sad, disgusting person. No, we cannot be friends if you support him. Kamala: I want to support the working class and help people buy homes. Trump: I will immediately punish everyone who has opposed me. The two sides are not the same. Maybe before Trump you could pretend they were. They weren’t… but the GOP kinda pretended they weren’t fascist POSs. Project 2025 just fucking comes out and says it. They want to overthrow democracy.
The GOP under Trump is more ethical than it was under Bush. Fewer children killed and PATRIOT Acts signed
They are saying two different things.
But why would you believe Kamala is radically different is beyond me. It’s lawful evil vs chaotic evil. Yes, with evil you’d prefer lawful.
All you’re saying is your entirely ignorant of the political outcomes of the last century, you aren’t smart or enlighten because you think ‘both sides’. If Hillary won we wouldn’t being dealing with a stuffed supreme court as well many other courts all over the country that have blatantly done all they can to give every action of Republicans the appearance of legality. We wouldn’t have lost over 1mil people in a pandemic. We wouldn’t be having courts openly consider resetting our entire legal system to the 1770s including full blown racist laws, we wouldn’t be fighting for our basic rights. The level to which you’re completely wrong is HIGH.
I don’t think “both sides”. I think they are the same side. That of establishment, or of elites, or of “the rich” if you like that rhetoric.
We wouldn’t be having courts openly consider resetting our entire legal system to the 1770s including full blown racist laws, we wouldn’t be fighting for our basic rights. The level to which you’re completely wrong is HIGH.
Yes, threatening you with “authoritarianism or barbarism” is more persuasive if barbarism is real. I’m not saying there’s anything else on the ballot.
One side: We are rich and hate poor people.
The other side: We are rich and hate poor people, and also want to kill minorities and the people we think are deviants.
You: wow, totally the same.
Since they can’t exist without each other - yes.
I’m pretty sure the world can exist without Nazis. In fact, it did for a long time. It’s only recent history.
I meant that Republicans and Democrats of today can’t exist without each other.
Also no, it didn’t.
Who is actually saying this tho?
I believe the rationale is that if you vote for a candidate who says they’re going to reduce civil rights for people, then you also believe that those people should have their rights reduced. So I think they mean “by voting for the Civil Rights Reduction Party, you’re effectively saying you want these people’s rights to be reduced, whether or not you intend to.”
But that’s just my interpretation, I could be wrong.
If you vote for these people it means you support them
I think that about sums it up, no?
No one is, unless they are truly mad. These statements are often based on other commentary, pigeonholing individuals into specific categories, like only having two viewpoints, Blue or Red. But life isn’t so black and white. We all desire the same things like peace, security, economic stability, fairness, etc. Each side believes they have the solution, but in reality, neither does. The media manipulates the people into fighting with one other. Stop being sheep and fighting over scraps.
Stop with your enlightened centrist bullshit. This isn’t a solution to “peace”, “security”, “economic stability” nor “fairness”.
We are in agreement. I said neither side has the answers. The global elite will not allow the true solution to any of those things. They only want to retain power and occupy the world.
The problem is that one of the sides is the one that doesn’t want those things. And are you talking about the bourgeoisie when you say the global elite?
No, it’s not one side wants evil and one side wants good, that’s sheep think and exactly what the global elite want. The global elite do not show their face and they control the narrative. They have all their subordinates do all the dirty work so they don’t have to take the heat. The bourgeoisie aren’t the ‘The social class between the lower and upper classes’, they are the 1% of the 1% that control the world. Wake up.
“Global elite” is a frequent code word used by anti-Semites, and it means ‘Jews’. As this is the 4th time you’ve used that phrase in this group, where it had never been used before, I’m asking: What exactly are you talking about when you say ‘global elite’?
Global, meaning the people in control who live throughout the entire globe. Nothing to do with race or nationality. Simply the ones in power who don’t reveal themselves and have others carry out their plan.
Yeah it’s like when Republicans say “Democrats want to kill babies”. You’re misinterpreting your political opponent in the least charitable way possible. I’m not a conservative at all, but when dealing with people who are different than you, you need to assume good faith. There is a core of conservative Trump supporters who really are just selfish assholes, but most people-yes, including people whos political views you find immoral and repugnant-are fundamentally good.
That doesn’t mean they’re right! But I don’t see why I can’t be friends with somebody who has looked at very complex moral issues like abortion, religion, and equality and come to different conclusions than me.
This is drivel. I don’t have to pretend that someone who is actively working to oppress others is “fundamentally good”.
You can be friends with people who have harmful views all you want. But you’re complicit.
Hmmmmm.
Do you support abortion? Do you think that Nazis should have some restrictions on their free speech? Do you oppose prayer being led by teachers in public schools? Do you support gun control?
If yes to any of the above, a political opponent could easily say that you in fact are actively working to oppress others and that your views are harmful. To which Im sure you would reply that no, those stances are about protecting and empowering people, but thats really a matter of perspective and conservatives would say the same thing about their principles. I’m sorry that this makes me sound like a smug enlightened centrist, cause I’m not remotely a centrist, but I think it’s narrow-minded to believe that only people with your worldview are fundamentally good.
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Do I believe rape is bad? Of course, and I believe the accusations and therefore I believe Trump is a bad person. But the vast majority of his supporters don’t believe the accusations, so it’s not fair to accuse them of knowingly supporting a rapist. Honest question, do you really believe 40% of the US population is shitty and evil?
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Exactly! But what worries me is that I am beginning to see a lack of this exact understanding more and more. On both sides equally lately too.
I have been labeled a trump supporter for not agreeing with a specific thing. I have been labeled a “kamala communist” all that stuff, for the same in the reverse. I have been banned for hate speech for saying “Yeah this is my field of study, we dont actually do this - it would be dangerous - that is just something you hear politically active” - literally in an “Give me an alternate opinion” subreddit.
It’s just like that little short film “Kill All Others” - I am being mistaken for being in the opposite side when really I have not picked a side. This ostracization is becoming more common. Hyperpoliticalization.
Couldn’t agree more. I have been called everything from a leftist shill to an NPC to a bootlicker, depending on whether I am trying to engage with someone to the left or right of me. It’s a little frustrating… I wouldn’t even say that I haven’t picked a side- I absolutely do have political stances, and I’m pretty far left overall, but that doesn’t stop people farther left than me of accusing me of being in bed with the fascists/“part of the problem”
you know you can think all of those things and still disagree politically on the how right?
I take it you are unaware of American politics.
I wish. instead I get to be annoyed by people who think that if you don’t perfectly align with the talking points they listen to you must be the enemy
Well the “talking points” greatly affect people’s lives and rights. So, yeah. For example, if you disagree that LGBTQ people should have the same rights as everyone else then you are in fact the enemy.
It is appalling how divisive American politics is.
That’s your takeaway? How divisive!
Politics are people’s ethics and morality applied.
It is perfectly valid to judge people over them, and to shame people because of them. Just like you’d shame someone for littering.
Or even more aptly: just like you’d shame someone for using the N word. It is perfectly legal; it is NOT acceptable.
The problem with a two party system is that it polarizes the grey areas where a lot of people don’t have friendship or family ending feelings. When people subscribe whole heartedly to party mindsets they gain friends in that group but wall themselves off from others.
That’s why Europe is better
Europe has it’s own problems. Anti-muslim bigotry is rampant in many countries, as is anti-immigrant and refuge sentiment.
And England has made itself the home of transphobia thanks to a certain misogynistic, racist, and homophobic/transphobic children’s author who everyone there seems to take seriously.
Sad to see that basic human rights are party mindsets still.
Disingenuous. You want to talk human rights? How about Democratic support for Israel?
But I would only bring that into conversation when someone’s being disingenuous, because… Oh, yes. It’s disingenuous.
The worst part is, the Republican party is having a massive leadership crisis, and rather than dating things like “your leaders are fucking you over”, dems seem to think it’s a great idea to “shame” the Republicans - i.e., insult them for their identity - and alienaten them.
I am really starting to feel that Democrats don’t care how anyone votes, as long as they can get their moral superiority rocks off without having to actually dip their toes into nuanced (and actually moral) reasoning. Like, there’s so much fear, that you can’t help but create the situations you fear worst.
Yea I speak out against the leadership supporting Israel, what’s your point. I see tons of Republicans supporting the genocide wholeheartedly and loving how much their leadership spews hate toward me and my people and my friends for just existing.
It isn’t a leadership crisis, they know exactly who they have and WANT exactly who they have. I don’t know how else I can try and help them understand in good faith when they constantly spit at us. Look at project 2025 as the most recent example, they deserve to be shamed if they still call themselves what they do after seeing that. There’s only so much I can do and so much I can take from them. I’m probably gonna trigger you for saying this but we didn’t talk Hitler down in good faith. We didn’t break slavery with talks and communication, we didn’t bring the lgbt community that I belong to into the mainstream and out of the closet by asking nicely and convincing people with words alone. Ghandi didn’t liberate India because of his nonviolence, it was thanks to like minded but violent groups showing force that ghandis message was listened too. The black panthers had to go out and show force for mlks talks to matter.
The ‘fear’ I have isn’t self created, it’s one I’ve experienced for just existing from very specific people who support a very specific ideology.
