No, there really isn’t. The Nazis collaborated with the founding Zionists, Israel has always been a genocidal settler-colonial project and Germany has retained support of it.
It’s pretty cut and dry that the original Zionists were anti-yiddish anti-Communist anti-semites that allied with prominent anti-semites against diaspora in order to pursue their settler-colonial project, which the Nazis gleefully worked for.
@Tangentism
It was Ilan Pappé, I think, who quipped:
“Zionists don’t believe in God, but they’ll all tell you that God gave them Israel.”
🇮🇱 Zionists are as Jewish as is convenient at any moment. @GarrulousBrevity
I think you’re conflating being Jewish with Judaism. His religious beliefs aren’t really what’s in question here, @SulaymanF@lemmy.world’s comment sums the idea up will. Herzl was, with no ambiguity, a member of the Jewish community.
I think you’ll find that all of the “original Zionists” were Christian @GarrulousBrevity
What we now call “Zionism” grew after the Protestant Reformation, and is rooted in 17th-century English Puritanism.
It had two significant streams:
the return of Jews to Palestine (basically, a way to rid Europe of its Jews - a form of antisemitism, a couple of centuries before that term was coined);
the second coming of Jesus (Jews who want to survive don’t remain Jewish).
At the time, Jewish communities weren’t impressed. In the 19th century, Herzl and his friends exploited the movement to their own ends. @Cowbee
Yes, antisemetic Jewish people living in different countries deliberately spreading antisemetic lies that they can’t integrate and need an ethnostate. The fact that they were Jewish doesn’t make settler-colonial genocide “not cut and dry.”
So, your argument that it’s not complicated is that Israel was founded by antisemitic Jews? I’m not even saying that you’re factually wrong, but you keep insisting that this isn’t complicated. It is complicated, and the more you insist that it’s simple, while giving increasing amounts of fine details is not particularly convincing
There is nothing inherently correct or false when it comes to black and white vs. gray. These are not real moral or epistemological quantities. Sometimes there are salient and clear-cut characterizations and this is the better way to think of a topic. Sometimes it is better to adopt multiple angles because no single view is usefully capturing a topic.
Instead of being indirect and appealing to false logic, why not just say what you actually find objectionable?
No, there really isn’t. The Nazis collaborated with the founding Zionists, Israel has always been a genocidal settler-colonial project and Germany has retained support of it.
Everything is black and white, gray is for apologists, then?
It’s pretty cut and dry that the original Zionists were anti-yiddish anti-Communist anti-semites that allied with prominent anti-semites against diaspora in order to pursue their settler-colonial project, which the Nazis gleefully worked for.
You see, many of the original Zionists were Jewish, it’s literally not so cut and dry.
Theodor Herzl, considered the grandfather of modern zionism, was an atheist
@Tangentism
It was Ilan Pappé, I think, who quipped:
“Zionists don’t believe in God, but they’ll all tell you that God gave them Israel.”
🇮🇱 Zionists are as Jewish as is convenient at any moment.
@GarrulousBrevity
I think you’re conflating being Jewish with Judaism. His religious beliefs aren’t really what’s in question here, @SulaymanF@lemmy.world’s comment sums the idea up will. Herzl was, with no ambiguity, a member of the Jewish community.
I think you’ll find that all of the “original Zionists” were Christian @GarrulousBrevity
What we now call “Zionism” grew after the Protestant Reformation, and is rooted in 17th-century English Puritanism.
It had two significant streams:
At the time, Jewish communities weren’t impressed. In the 19th century, Herzl and his friends exploited the movement to their own ends.
@Cowbee
#Israel
#Palestine
#Zionism
Yes, antisemetic Jewish people living in different countries deliberately spreading antisemetic lies that they can’t integrate and need an ethnostate. The fact that they were Jewish doesn’t make settler-colonial genocide “not cut and dry.”
So, your argument that it’s not complicated is that Israel was founded by antisemitic Jews? I’m not even saying that you’re factually wrong, but you keep insisting that this isn’t complicated. It is complicated, and the more you insist that it’s simple, while giving increasing amounts of fine details is not particularly convincing
The fact that Germany is supporting Zionism as they always have even under the Nazis is uncomplicated.
There is nothing inherently correct or false when it comes to black and white vs. gray. These are not real moral or epistemological quantities. Sometimes there are salient and clear-cut characterizations and this is the better way to think of a topic. Sometimes it is better to adopt multiple angles because no single view is usefully capturing a topic.
Instead of being indirect and appealing to false logic, why not just say what you actually find objectionable?
Yes, it is complicated which is why I said “not 100% awful” instead of completely justified or something like that.
It’s 100% awful, it’s just a continuation of Nazi ideology.