Me and my father, mother, and sister went out to dinner with my father’s side of the family (aunt, uncle, cousin and his girlfriend). The conversation led to the “conflict” in Palestine when my uncle started talking about it, saying that Jewish people were originally there, which I responded to by saying so were Palestinians, that Palestinians are not some settlers but share, to be the most charitable to him, roughly the same ancestry (although I could have said that the Palestinians have a much deeper connection to the land). When I asked why they wouldn’t make the same argument about “ancestry” nonsense concerning Native America, they said it was because “we won,” which flies in the face of their righteous indignation at the Oct. 7th attack, but whatever.
This sparked my cousin and Aunt’s involvement as well (while my sister, mom, and my cousin’s girlfriend stayed out of it), where they all hurled points at me simultaneously and I couldn’t even respond to anything fully without being interrupted, nor respond to every separate point at the same time—as much as my dad tried to chime in to help me, it was minimal, and at times he was also against me, like when I explained that the IOF bombed Israeli houses in the kibbutz to clear out Hamas after Oct. 7 so you can’t pin all the deaths on Hamas, to which he brilliantly added: “that makes no sense.”
My uncle said that Palestinians were offered a section of land by the UN prior to Israel’s takeover, to which I responded that the UN agreement was not an “offer” but a draft plan that the UN could not enforce at the time, and that Palestinians would have no reason to secede part of their territory to a colonizing force except the hindsight that they would be forced to secede yet more—I should have also said that it’s farcical to put forward the argument that the Palestinians deserve to be colonized because they refused to be colonized. I did bring up the Nakba, but nothing meaningful came of that.
I pointed out Israel’s bombings of hospitals, to which my cousin responded that the Al Ahli Arab Hospital bombing (I had to give the name because, despite him trying to concentrate it to a single example, he was clueless) was perpetrated by Hamas and that there were recordings of Hamas officials admitting to this. I responded that the claim is that it was perpetrated by PIJ, and that this is incorrect as the cancer center of that same hospital had been bombed by Israel three days prior and the AJ footage used by the IOF to trace it as a rocket coming out of Gaza was completely misrepresented and did not prove this. Furthermore, the “recording” referenced was proven by Channel 5 (UK) to be a fabrication. He responded “what’s Channel 5? (with a scoff). Then it came to denying the Health Ministry’s numbers, where I pointed out HRW’s confirmation of them.
My uncle used the Holocaust as an excuse for Israel’s occupation of Palestine, to which I pointed out that Palestinians had no part in this. He responded that many Palestinians were part of the SS. I said most of them weren’t but this didn’t matter to him. I asked him to look up the Haavara Agreement but was interrupted.
My aunt said that Hamas uses human shields. I responded that it is the IOF that uses Palestinians as human shields, citing the UN (2013) and the IOF’s own objection to the banning of the practice prior (there was no response to this). I also added that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth and that there is nowhere they can resist without being met with this accusation, which has never been confirmed and is simply Israel/U.S. propaganda. My uncle responded that Hamas controls this, to which I said that this isn’t true as Israel controls movement. They asked me why Egypt didn’t let people in, and I said I didn’t know but that isn’t the point, to which they responded that they “knew.” Hooray! It is that whenever you allow free immigration from Palestine, people go to other countries and “become terrorists”/“cause trouble.” When I asked if they thought all Palestinians were terrorists they said “no, just Hamas.” I should have asked if they spoke another dialect of English where anything they said made any sense, much less disproved my response to the original point.
They talked about how the siege was okay because Hamas was stealing all of the supplies anyways, and I said “From who? The ‘human animals’? That’s what Gallant said when he announced the total siege after Oct. 7th.” My aunt and cousin responded that this is “just war,” and war is “awful anywhere.” They pointed out that Hamas has the destruction of Israel in their charter. I asked what the issue was, and if they had a problem with the Likud party’s similar statements. No response. But no time to linger.
They said Hamas was supported by Iran (I don’t know why this matters), and that Iran is an “evil country.” I said that maybe you shouldn’t have imprisoned Mosaddegh for life and propped up a monarch. My uncle said “maybe we shouldn’t, but give me a break, it would be the same way anyways.” My aunt said that the Quran says all Jews must be killed (I asked where but she didn’t reply)—I wanted to say “doesn’t the Bible say Jewish people will go to hell unless they accept Christianity?” Didn’t get the chance. My aunt said she “opposed killing anywhere,” which is the really profound drivel you get from people who have been proven wrong, that this was their point the entire time is laughable.
On a side note, my uncle also brought up Chinese “expansionism” “across the globe.” When I asked where “across the globe” he was referring to, he said in the Philippines, where China had built artificial islands, and in Africa. I said that Chinese activity in Africa was simply investment and the like, and that you could at the very least make the same argument for the U.S. Also, China has never executed African political leaders for regime change like the U.S. My dad chimed in: “maybe they have.” AAAH
So much more happened but I can’t remember everything, my heart was beating out of my chest dealing with it all (told by my mom I ruined our last time with them before they moved to another state). I had to shake their hands after like we had just played a great game of Yahtzee, and my uncle said “You learned some stuff” to me when I was leaving. Learned afterwards from my mom and sister that my aunt was making mean faces at me when I looked away and kept whispering to them that I was “brainwashed by liberal schools.” Sorry.
Geez, sorry you had to deal with that.
they said it was because “we won,”
Seems you can’t bother appealing to morals or empathy with these kinds of “us or them” people. They’ll back whatever they think is in their best interest.
They said Hamas was supported by Iran (I don’t know why this matters), and that Iran is an “evil country.” I said that maybe you shouldn’t have assassinated Mosadegh and propped up a monarch. My uncle said “maybe we shouldn’t, but give me a break, it would be the same way anyways.”
Ah, don’t you love that anti-arab racism?
my uncle said “You learned some stuff”
“Maybe you should try learning sometime, uncle pissbaby”
White makes right.
“we won”
With some of the dirtiest underhanded tactics and the luck of having a plague on their side.
okay comrade your entire situation fucking sucks and i’m sorry, but the thing i can’t escape is
He responded that many Palestinians were part of the SS
firstly, that wouldn’t justify the genocide thats happening today, and secondly, WHAT? these people think that a bunch of random arabs were operating fucking gas chambers or something??? and they’re willing to excuse germany (the country that actually pulled that shit) but palestine is too far? absolute fucking insanity
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“that makes no sense.”
me when im high off my ass on NBOMe watching an apache helicopter dispatched to destroy concert crashers firing at my own position (i paid for a ticket)
Nbes fucking suck, if they were taking that shit on purpose they deserved the missiles off that alone.
I should probably be clear when talking about drugs that I’m using them as an example of “fake shit they probably think is acid” rather than just putting them in a cool sounding situation
Shit like this is why there is a small but active part of my brain constantly dunking on every bad opinion I see, even if it’s just in text or a podcast. It’s a little weapons lab in my head constantly taking in hog opinions and churning out rapid responses. I’ll admit I look odd talking angrily to no one, but practice is the price of proficiency.
It developed for non-political reasons back in middle school, but eventually I decided to repurpose it rather than shut it down.
I think your whole family at once might strain it’s abilities though
Hey look, it me
Only reason I torture myself on Reddit constantly arguing with shitlibs and chuds is to learn all the talking points that are sublimating into American brains from mainstream media. Now I can stunlock these folks when they bring up these idiotic points then get asked why I don’t pursue a career in politics. Probably because at best I’d go nowhere and at worst get disappeared and “commit suicide”
“Human shields” is the most bullshit argument, it makes no sense at all. It’s just a military that slaughters civilians, giving an excuse that doesn’t mean anything, to try to absolve themselves of crimes against humanity. It’s asymmetric warfare. Either they justify killing civilians or they don’t.
You can just as easily say that the whole Israeli population is human shields, that West Bank settlers are human shields, that all the rockets are fired at military targets but hit human shields.
I’m sorry your family is so racist and indoctrinated.
Yea it’s a premise that doesn’t hold up to the most basic scrutiny. Like sure, they use human shields, so you keep firing anyway???
It’s a waste of time to argue politics w amerikkkans they have zero historical knowledge so they base all their positions on vibes, which can never be disproven
I think I felt my blood boil while reading this.
“we won”
That is honestly the tagline of the past 3 generations of adult americans.
The war-apologia was also really on brand.
How many times do I have to repeat it…
They can go to the cuck pit pit or switch flags for all I care
So much more happened but I can’t remember everything, my heart was beating out of my chest dealing with it all
Even if you changed zero minds, you gave their brain worms something to chew on. It’s also great practice for talking with people who haven’t built their whole life on the state media narrative.
Sorry you had to get ganged up on by people who are objectively wrong, though. The meanest thing you can say to them is that they’re wrong. They just retort with “I don’t care”
Yeah I now just say death to israel, death to america, and leave. It’s not worth it.
I’m convinced nothing can really be done about these people besides having some humility beaten into them, metaphorically.
When I say that I mean being forced to witness their rotten worldviews getting crushed and chewed apart by cold hard reality, assuming everything that’s happening now trends in a good direction e.g. Israel and yanks getting fucking demolished and humiliated, with the U.S. undergoing a collapse that sends it into irrelevancy. Something like that.
But knowing Americans, their arrogance will find a way.
I think you should email them all their arguments debunked and close the whole thing calling them a bunch of shitstains
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When I asked why they wouldn’t make the same argument about “ancestry” nonsense concerning Native America, they said it was because “we won,” which flies in the face of their righteous indignation at the Oct. 7th attack, but whatever.
This sparked my cousin and Aunt’s involvement as well (while my sister, mom, and my cousin’s girlfriend stayed out of it), where they all hurled points at me simultaneously
For just a second, I thought you were going to say your family got on him for the basically-fascist nature of saying “the genocide was pretty successful, so we don’t need to worry about it anymore”. Turns out I was the sweet summer child all along.
He responded that many Palestinians were part of the SS. I said most of them weren’t but this didn’t matter to him.
What the fuck? Far more Palestinians fought on the Allied side under Britain! Literally who in Palestine joined the SS at all? This is absurd, especially since this fucker won’t bat an eye at white industrialists bankrolling the actual Holocaust.
I can’t respond to this blow-by-blow because I’ll just write a dissertation that no one will read, but Jesus Christ friend, I’m sorry you need to deal with this.
My advice is that, in a spat, you immediately seek nothing other than to get them to agree to a set of proceedings that you can handle, e.g. “Don’t all yell at me at once, let’s speak one at a time and let each other finish”. The substance of the issue can only come after you take measures to ensure that the substance can actually be addressed.