the “parapsychology” thread got nuked but the discussion reminded me of a Return of the Repressed podcast episode I had listened to in December

it was a Q&A episode and in his typical style, the host Marcus went deep on a question posed by fan/collaborator Reid (@seriations on twitter) regarding the role of magical-religious (i.e. non-materialist) beliefs in proletarian revolution. We’re all familiar with the ways the bourgeoisie promote and exploit these sorts of beliefs to their own ends (ex. Filipino aswang vampire psyops vs the Huk guerillas, Indonesian anticommunist “witch hunting” vs Gerwani feminists, Operation Wandering Soul trying to freak out Vietcong with “ghosts”, etc etc etc, up to Qanon and the UFO-cult of today) – and of course, how their own worldviews are often propped up by these sorts of beliefs (ex. social hierarchies are in fact justified by genetic blood-destiny) – but what about the inverse? How might we use them, too?

(note with respect to the aforementioned “parapsychology” thread, this is not a question of whether some such belief might be substantiated, proven “real” or not, but rather of strategy)

Marcus explained his first intuition was to look at the history of accusations of vampirism lobbed at feudal European aristocracy (ex. Elizabeth Bathory), but abandoned this line of inquiry when his research suggested that these accusations actually tended to reflect intra-class conflict between rulers/institutions of the time, i.e. factional power jockeying.

Changing tack, Marcus then offers a long exploration of the contentious historical relationship between Chinese secret societies, magical-religious beliefs, martial arts, and rebellion.

To anyone curious about how these things might intersect (short version: it gets messy), I would recommend the episode and I’ll drop some other related links below

https://podbay.fm/p/the-return-of-the-repressed/e/1703245745

SHOW NOTES

In these dark times its difficult to find reason for making believe, this will all change once you hit play. Answering Reid for almost two hours I will do my outmost to lift you spirits to unknown heights. Counterintuitively by taking a deep dive in to Chinese secret societies, covering thousands of years, culminating in a communist community exorcism by the black and red Dao.

We are talking apotropaic magic, the swallowing of protective charms, anti-fascist Kung Fu fighting, mystic mind-control and brain washing in the Tang dynasty, social tech of the Henan peasantry and the socialist Shaolin monks who would liberate Beijing from the compradors, the war and drug lords as well as imperialist invaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_movement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lanterns_(Boxer_Uprising)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Spear_Society

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Spears'_uprising_in_Shandong_(1928–1929)

➡️ The Red Spears, 1916–1949 Tai Hsüan-chih translated by Ronald Suleski https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3998/mpub.19970

➡️ The Red Spears Reconsidered: An Introduction Elizabeth J. Perry https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/166/oa_edited_volume/chapter/2707255

➡️ Secret Societies Reconsidered: Perspectives on the Social History of Early Modern South China and Southeast Asia: Perspectives on the Social History of Early Modern South China and Southeast Asia by David Ownby (Author), Mary F. Somers Heidhues (Author) https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/edit/10.4324/9781315288055/secret-societies-reconsidered-perspectives-social-history-early-modern-south-china-southeast-asia-mary-somers-heidhues-david-ownby

➡️ “Secret Societies” Reconsidered: Perspectives on the Social History of Early Modern South China and Southeast Asia (review) Scott Lowe https://muse.jhu.edu/article/396407/pdf

  • TraumaDumpling [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    3 months ago

    god forbid an online communist community acknowledge that humans actually don’t know everything about the universe. completely unacceptable mod behavior.

    just to push back against the redditor atheists, here’s a basic explanation of why i believe what i do, and how i see the concepts involved:

    physicalist realism: your consciousness simply doesn’t exist. your experiences? not real. its an illusion. and what is perceiving this illusion? nothing, since experiences are not real, nothing can be experiencing them. Doesn’t that seem logically inconsistent? illusions are real in themselves, and something has to be experiencing the illusion right? well that’s because you are too beholden to language or something, the universe doesn’t have to make sense to your idiot meat brain and it’s stupid monkey ‘’‘’‘logic’‘’‘’. What’s going on inside your head then? nothing but matter bumping into other matter, your experience and perspective probably boil down to math somehow, don’t ask how exactly but we will definitely totally find out sometime in The FutureTM. in short, the Hard Problem of Consciousness isn’t real.

    the primary implication of physicalist realism: people, including yourself, literally don’t exist as conscious beings, and are merely flesh-robots deterministically reacting to their environment according to physical rules. anyone’s perceptions of pain, or literally anything else, are nonexistent. illusory and meaningless in any real sense. The only contents of reality are physical phenomena, measured quantities of particles and ‘energy’ bouncing around deterministically until the heat death of the universe.

    physicalist realism and its ramifications for ethics and politics: since people aren’t real, none of their opinions or desires matter or mean anything. it doesn’t matter in any real sense whether you kill or abuse or steal or maim or harass anyone, or if anyone does the same to you, as it is only matter interacting with matter according to deterministic physical rules. there is no reason to fight for a better world, not even if you can expect short term improvements in your own personal quality of life, because neither you nor others exist, and your desires and ideas and pain are similarly illusory/nonexistent and meaningless. whatever happens happens and thats it, any feelings about reality don’t matter in an objective sense and were pre-determined at the Big Bang or whatever other start of Time or The Universe like clockwork, and you do not exist enough to actually make meaningful choices, only playing out your Program. you might as well be a selfish asshole and hoard wealth and comfort, since this illusory experience is all you can (not) exist in, or you might as well cause yourself to die, since your consciousness already does not exist. your impact on others literally cannot matter in a meaningful way, since no ones consciousness is real to be victim to your actions, and you literally could not have chosen any other course of action in this physics-based deterministic universe. It would not matter if humanity were to be wiped out by an astronomical event, since life’s value is equivalent to lifeless matter as our consciousness does not exist.

    anti-physicalist-realism: your consciousness exists in some sense and has yet to be explained by physics, in even a hypothetical sense. the Hard Problem of Consciousness persists. Physics as it currently stands does not fully and accurately describe every aspect of reality or the universe.

    the primary implication of anti-physicalist-realism: Your consciousness is the only thing you can ever have access to in terms of epistemology, and therefore it must be considered the primary grounds of existence, as the reality of consciousness itself is impossible for consciousness to seriously doubt, unlike any particular contents of it. Whatever you are experiencing, whether illusion or not, it is being experienced in some sense, there is a perspective to be experiencing from, even if that perspective’s specific nature is mysterious. It stands to reason then, that the ideas, images, and even people in your consciousness are real in some sense, and not entirely illusory or nonexistent even if their true nature is obscured, and may even have their own internal consciousness perspective, which is as real to them as yours is to you. this means that not only do your ideas and pains and desires matter, since they really exist, but those of others do as well.

    anti-physicalist-realism and its ramifications for ethics and politics: since consciousness exists in some sense, its contents are worthy of some consideration. other people like you have their own internal experiences, desires, pains, and ideas, which all really exist in a meaningful sense and warrant consideration. therefore, there may be reasons to consider avoiding harassing, abusing, or hurting others. additionally, regardless of the existence of any ‘afterlife’ or ‘soul’, your actions will at least live on in the real consciousnesses of other people who will come after you, whose Actually Existing Sensations will be affected in some way, meaning that it is necessary to consider your impact on those around you, and even work together for everyone’s benefit even if you personally get no physical reward - your feelings can be reward enough. It would be tragic if humanity were wiped out, since our consciousness and pain and hopes were all real, non-illusory phenomena that distinguished us from inanimate matter or automatic mindless biological reflex

    i’m going to keep believing that the hard problem of cosciousness hasn’t been solved or handwaved away successfully, i’m going to keep believing that humanity has yet to discover everything in the universe, i’m going to keep believing that worker ownership of the means of production are necessary to creating a more just society, and that democratic centralism is a good way to accomplish that goal, and i’m going to keep calling myself a Communist, even if i might have specific philosophical/epistemological/ontological differences with certain interpretations of some of it’s ideological founders.

    • ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]@hexbear.net
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      3 months ago

      people, including yourself, literally don’t exist as conscious beings, and are merely flesh-robots deterministically reacting to their environment according to physical rules. anyone’s perceptions of pain, or literally anything else, are nonexistent.

      If we’re all just quantum interactions inevitably leading to the appearance of consciousness, that still makes us real. Whatever we think, even if there is no truly free willed “consciousness” powering it, those thoughts are still happening. They are physical processes that can be measured and have an observable effect on the universe. Even if it’s because of particle interactions preordained since the big bang, we still feel the pain. There might ultimately be no point to our existence and no real choices that we can make, but that only makes our choices illusory, not our experiences. There is still a point to improving your quality of life, and it’s simply that you like that. There is a point to improving other’s quality of life, and it’s simply that they like that. You may not have ever truly had a choice about it, but those processes definitely still happen. You can declare that it’s all pointless because you were destined to never do anything, or you can loudly declare that it was preordained by the natural processes of the universe when people ask why you’re sticking googly eyes on all the door handles.
      It’s honestly weird that we always talk about people being a product of their conditions but as soon as it comes to metaphysics people start going “but what if we’re special and not really a product of our conditions”.