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JUST MAKE NEW THINGShaha nostalgia cashcow goes brrrr
Yeah…having re-watched avatar with my son not that long ago I don’t see where the issue is. Downplaying/removing his chauvinism and sexism only serves to negate his character arc and more importantly undercuts the hilarity of watching his shit get kicked in by Suki and the Kyoshi warriors. I think if anything: the only part that has aged poorly is the part where Suki falls for him. Still kinda would have preferred it if he had thought that’s where it was going and she’d have been like “…whoa…dude…we’re not…no…just no…”. Too many of these stories end with these characters getting romantically entangled with each other and not enough end with them just coming to respect each other as peers.
yeah but on the other hand suki and sokka are kind of a cool low key part of the last season. Sokka with the lei is so funny.
Suki is a really bland character though, if you took her out of the final season not much would change
I feel a big part of the finale is that Sokka, previously believing that women are useless on the battlefield, leads two women in destroying the airship fleet.
Also Sokka going from an incompetent know it all to a capable leader and tactician.
The best part of his character arc is that he doesn’t simply become more humble or something, like half of it is basically just “oh yeah I’m smart AND other people are smart too, it’s all coming together”
Yeah I just rewatched recently too and the sexism seems unnecessary. Just being a know-it-all or even just fighting his own twisted sense of warrior masculinity is enough of a start point for his arc.
The space sword episode being his redemption, one of my favorite episodes
If they leaned into the toxic masculinity aspect that would work great, but it might make a new generation of eggs
You can’t fight sexism by just not talking about it…
deliberately show how sexist sokka was, and show how he changed his mind as he was proven wrong
that’s the only way to fight sexism
I would choose violence but yeah that can help too
He is beaten up pretty good and that’s how he learns tbh
He literally becomes less sexist by getting his ass kicked
It is time to make sokka a flaming homsexual twink who flirts with every man in the series no matter how out of place it is eventually leading to the sokka/zuko ship.
Netflix make it happen.
They’re already doing it with Mihawk in the One Piece live action, and it works pretty well
When you consider that the live action performance has that kind of almost-understated flamboyance that is really rare in anime, I think it could just be taken as a legit read on the character.
I 100% see how the actor got that vibe from the character, it’s not at all out of left field or anything. It’s just more… Played up? Present? I dunno the word for it.
I was just reminded of live action Mihawk. That dude was the highlight of the show for me.Makes sense. Yeah, Mihawk is great, though I thought Zoro was surprisingly good despite losing some of his goofiness. The fact that he still gets constantly lost but plays it off is funny, and the “not calling your moves” bit was a genuinely good addition even if it meant Zoro no longer called his (maybe he will warm up to the concept later if they have another season?)
Honestly the whole cast was great, Mihawk was just the standout for me. Live action One Piece has made me change my mind on “why remake animation in live action?”
Speaking of the live action One Piece adaptation, what did everyone think of how they handled Arlong? They turned him into a Killmonger type character (Fishmonger?
) where he was mostly a mean sadistic gangster with a disdain for humans in the original arc. The manga did establish the oppression faced by fishpeople in depth later on and even gave a backstory to why Arlong and his gang in particular hated humans, but in the Netflix show he was kind of doing a speech in every scene he was in.I’m glad they’re incorporating things Oda established later on in these early parts but I kind of felt this was once again a situation where the one character using revolutionary language is a violent murderous psychopath
I enjoyed it, but I know the whole story and I think that recontextualises things. Feel like (with that knowledge) it’s a good depiction of how people/movements can get corrupted/lose their ways or the like over time. Nazbols come from somewhere.
Without that though, it’s kinda just another killmonger.Yeah, that bit stood out to me too. I wasn’t familiar with the anime or manga, but people here usually talk about it being based. So I was pretty surprised that it felt like they were poisoning the well on revolutionaries.
We’re all balking at this, but like half this site used to be on the “audiences are too dumb to handle any amount of moral ambiguity! All media must be blatant morality plays or else everyone will get turned into fascists form watching Breaking Bad!!!” We kinda asked for this
Yeah and the original story of Sokka was an obvious morality play.
They had him get owned and learn that women aren’t weak like four times. He learned to actually fight in a dress and make up. It was not subtle.
He learned to actually fight in a dress and make up
what if they do this scene anyways?
If he wasn’t sexist before then what’s the point of the scene? They’re not going to have a scene where Sokka explores his gender identity.
Idk but that doesnt mean they won’t do it anyways.
They’re still gonna have it, because in their brains a dude being weird about women warriors isn’t sexist. I’m lathing it right now
Yeah and Hollywood exec dorks always take the worse interpretation of things
I mean yeah? They wanna make money and they focus grouped this to be unprofitable. That’s not what you were arguing, as far as I understand. You were writing that hexbear users thought only the most obvious morality plays should be left in, and that this wasn’t one (we kinda asked for this).
I disagree, I think it was an obvious morality play, and now I don’t get the point you’re making.and now I don’t get the point you’re making.
Yeah I don’t either I’m and idiot
Edit: sorry that was petty, was in a bad mood when I first typed that out.
Lemme reframe what I was saying, “morality play” wasn’t really the right term to use. There were people on this site who seemed to think fans always emulate the negative attributes of the characters in the media they consume, not matter how blatant the writers try and make it that these are flaws, or even if they evolve past the flaws. The fans always end up emulating the douchebag version of the character so we need more media where the protagonists are upstanding people from chapter 1 to give people better figures to admire.
The only places I’ve seen this talked about is Rick and Morty and Breaking Bad and, while I am a Lib because I have not finished either so I am literally speaking without investigation, what I’ve seen of Rick and Morty makes me think they REALLY like pushing the “Rick is a cool superhero science man who doesn’t care about dumb stuff like fee fees” angle, even if it’s done in an ironic tone. And neither piece of media has any actual, persistent and memorable examples of actually good behavior depicted in a positive light, as far as I know, which is HUGE, because if you just mock someone and then leave it at that, then people are going to interpret that however the fuck they will and 80% of the time it’ll be assuming you just thought murder was good or whatever. Because having bad things happen and then not providing even a glimpse of what a good thing could have looked like without mocking that too will result in viewers just assuming the point is nihilism.
Rick and Morty is a good example of people trying to write flawed characters and mostly failing. They’ve made attempts to flesh Rick out, including an extended side plot about him going to therapy, but it seems like every time they get close to doing something interesting with it they end up reversing it, and I suspect it’s probably because the network wants to keep milking the IP, and having Rick actually resolve some issues would effectively be the end of the show so they’re holding off on that till they hit a season where they barely make any profit and decide it’s time to close up shop.
Breaking Bad has it’s flaws but overall I think it handled things a lot better. It does become glaringly obvious what a terrible person Walter is becoming as the show goes on and he pays dearly for his crimes in the end. I think the number of fans who still celebrate him as a hero is overstated, every fan I’ve met of the show IRL is fully aware he’s the villain. Yeah there are dumb Reddit 14 year olds but they have their head so far up there ass I don’t think you can make thing blatant enough for them, really that’s the actual problem here, no piece of media can be made misinterpretation-proof, I’ve seen people almost willfully misinterpret works where the author basically delivered a monologue at the end laying out their intended message in excruciating detail. People are going to read into something what they want to read, you really can’t stop them and you can’t really hold authors accountable for it, the only real solution would be just to not make media anymore.
No need to apologise, it wasn’t perceived as rude on my end.
There were people on this site who seemed to think fans always emulate the negative attributes of the characters in the media they consume, not matter how blatant the writers try and make it that these are flaws, or even if they evolve past the flaws. The fans always end up emulating the douchebag version of the character so we need more media where the protagonists are upstanding people from chapter 1 to give people better figures to admire.
Yeah I remember some of those discussions. UlyssesT was often very active in them… It could get difficult not to share the consensus opinion. Generally those kinds of discussions suck because they end up being very black/white. I don’t like it. I get what you were trying to say, which was also why I asked about your point - I was wondering if I had misunderstood something. I agree with you on the point that some users here have some very definite opinions on how entertainment should be, and those opinions are kinda weird/silly because yeah, then you do end up with removing Sokkas sexism and the like.
I never said anything like that and I will be reporting this comment for libel.mods! MODS!!!
MODS I SPIL MY JICE MODS HELP HELP HELP
Like I unironically kind of (not really but kind of) think that and also Sokka’s arc literally WAS that, we’re balking at it BECAUSE they’re removing the obvious morality play
Okay, “Morality Play” wasn’t the right term to use. But there are a lot of people who think fans only ever emulate the bad features of protagnists regardless of whether those are presented as flaws they grow out of or not, so protagonists in media should always be morally upright people from chapter 1.
That half of the site was wrong
I might be confused on this but doesn’t a morality play involve some flaw or sin causing a tragedy? So Sokka would have to be sexist and then get karmically punished for that?
Yes, and ironically the original Avatar was actually a pretty good example of a show that wasn’t ambiguous in its messaging. However coked up media executives are dumb and always going to take the worst interpretation of everything.
Yeah looking at your comment I think I agree the earlier naive interpretations of “no protagonists should be bad” is dumb, but clarity is really important in media and artists do assume viewers are able to see their message too often
I don’t think Hexbears have any influence on these things
The Hexbear discourse on this seems to be reflective of boarder online discourse about, which does influence things. Producers do read twitter, or at least they used to, sadly.
If you say so
I think it’s more how liberalism does not like to create media that truly grapples and discusses hard topics outside of cis white female sexism experiences, whitewashed talks on racism (i.e. Malcolm X extremism) and shit within the suburbanite bubble.
For being a kids cartoon I have to say Avatar was a good introduction to the harm of war, propaganda that is fed by an empire, and themes on humility and respect.
This is what happens when people refuse to read any literary theory. Sorry folks, only reading Lenin is not going to help you understand art.
yes, big, we’re all looking for the guy who did this, energy.
(but breaking bad is bad actually, not because it is too ambiguous, but because it constantly indulges the audience and never challenges identification with a ressentiment-filled loser.)
Inb4 legend of korra live action remake happens and they somehow make it even more hamfistedly anti-communist by making korra a mix between Hillary and AOC and Amon a Bernie sanders knock-off in a Zhongshan suit
For a second I got very mixed up and thought you were suggesting a Bernie Firelord Ozai, which would be very funny but for different reasons.
Water. Earth. Fire. Air. My grandmother used to tell me stories about the old days, a time of peace when the Avatar kept balance between the Water Tribes, Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation, and Air Nomads. But that all changed when the Fire Nation redistributed their land. Only the Avatar mastered all four elements. Only he could stop the ruthless firebenders from their dystopian program of social progress and the abolition of class. But when we needed him, he disappeared.
And then idk the show is about the other three nations invading the Fire Nation in order to do a Bourbon Restoration.
Now that’s a show I can hate watch behind.
Next they’ll remove Iroh for having too much swag. No Iroh emotes
Hella major growth and development. …oh and good character writing as well.
FR FR though Iroh getting secretly Jacked in solitary was so goddamn cool and I’ll be astounded if they even try to replicate it in the live action series.
Yeah, that’s the whole episode where they introduce Suki
I don’t understand how you get rid of it. For fucks sake it gets resolved in like episode 5. Women beating up a sexist asshole is fucking evergreen.
That’s what’s weird about this removal to me, it’s so quick and easy to show, even if I disagree about it being a huge important part of his character, it’s like a very minor removal in terms of screen time
In film it is often important to compare impact to screen time. All you need for this arc is 4 scenes. The opening fishing scene with the sexist comments. The backstory of the men leaving to go to war and leaving sokka with too much responsibility. Him being shown as a fairly shit warrior. Then the kyoshi scene where the boy with the weird complex and shit for skill thinks he can beat professional warriors because they are women. First off, thats hardly any screen time for a satisfying arc. Its not the highlight of book one but its quick and doesn’t take away from anything else. And the thing is that all those scenes will probably be in this show, they just won’t provide character development. So they took away character development without freeing up screen time for other arcs. Amateur.
I can only guess that they thought some people might stop watching during the opening scene with the sexism. The thing is though that those dudes still exist. Sokka is a saint compared to your average 13 year old andrew tate/alpha content stan. Its still a relevant arc, unlike the “girls like bad boys” bit in book 2 (the sokka teaching aang how to flirt bit not the Jet arc). Idk even that one. They could change it to pick up artist shit I guess. I’d rather can it though.
Yeah Im on the same page as you, Im surprised they bothered to take it out considering how easy to put in it is
I will riot if they cut “my girlfriend turned into the moon”
“… That’s rough buddy”.Everything I see about the writing sounds bad and the outfits also look like shit. Every character looks like they’re a high end cosplayers, not someone who lives through a war. Why is everyone’s clothes perfectly ironed and clean
Every character looks like they’re a high end cosplayers
2D and 3D have such different aesthetics, the only good way to costume an adaptation like this is to find a costume director who has never seen the original and get fresh ideas on set. But doing that would entail taking on the risk that the new ideas might suck, so Netflix would rather make something that will definitely suck but won’t generate a ton of online complaints.
One piece live action has managed to pull it off the best so far, and it still looks bad.
It is for children.
So was the original and that’s one of the best TV shows ever
Okay? I’m talking about the costumes, comrade. Its a netflix show adaptation of a child’s cartoon. High end cosplay is the only thing you were ever gonna get. Why would you expect the costumes to look as though they’re realistic characters living through a war
Character growth? Wtf is that?
Blocking in that frame is totally wack.
What’s blocking?
Blocking is how actors are arranged and move in a film scene. If you want to know more.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Positioning of characters in a scene in relation to the environment and, in television or movies, the camera
Is it different from composition?
As far as I’m aware, the nuance between the two terms would lie in that they blocking specifically refers to it from a character perspective. Can I see what they’re doing? Can I see what their face while they’re emoting? I think it’s more to do with live theater than television or film. For example, before rehearsals you might “block out a scene” where you read your lines with your counterpart while standing in the correct position and planning out when you need to be where.
Composition on the other hand, would be directly related to the camera and where things are to make a good shot. They overlap for sure, but blocking I feel is more limited in the scope of what it can refer to.
Makes sense, ty
Basic cinematography and staging doesn’t exist in late stage capital, just treat production and grift
Meh, the Ember Island Players did it better
This is the problem with over corrective media that’s scared to offend. I don’t mean this in the right-wing way either of including hack “offensive” shock-jock style content like Family Guy or South Park.
hack “offensive” shock-jock style content like Family Guy or South Park
Eh, its all part of the curve. Sokka and Cartman are both descriptions of immature characters prone to egoism. Family Guy / South Park is just more exaggerated. I can see people reading Sokka as hack or shock-jocky and I can see people reading Cartman as simply childish and rude.
Either way, these characters exist as a foil to the primary characters in a Goofus and Gallant dichotomy. Sokka exists to bring Aang’s naive virtuousness into sharper relief.
Yeah, except, South Park’s Cartman is a static, unchanging character, who’s actions, no matter how horrific, are made implicitly more acceptable by the constant mockery of everyone else, which gives the impression that the writers actually don’t care about Cartman being a serial killer or whatever and just think it’s funny
I mean, a staple of the setting is a character that keeps getting killed but never dies.
South Park is also created by libertarians who enjoy edginess so Cartman acts both as a strawman and straightman depending on the plot instead of being an overall insufferable chud
They call themselves Libertarians, but they’re not xenophobes and Christian fundamentalists. They’re more secular smug centrists.
Which, yes, sure bad. But scratch the prevailing political views at Nickelodeon and you’re not going to find much better.
Cartman acts both as a strawman and straightman depending on the plot
He’s literally stood in for Bugs Bunny in certain scenes. The character is supposed to be insufferable but not entirely unlikeable.
instead of being an overall insufferable chud
Sure, that’s Mr Garrison the Trump loving gay Republican public school teacher with an enormous chip on his shoulder.
Another obnoxious but ultimately sympathetic figure who routinely gets swept up in the hype to comic effect.
The biggest difference between Sokka and Cartman/Garrison is the degree of grossness in the humor. Sokka will get caught up in a fit of machismo and embarrass himself in front of some girls. Cartman will get caught up in a fit of machismo and end up in a giant ball of poop and piss and jizz and clouds of farts.
They call themselves Libertarians, but they’re not xenophobes and Christian fundamentalists. They’re more secular smug centrists.
Libertarisn always pivot rightways when scratched though in the same vein as liberals, I mean just gotta look at their stances on LGBTQ issues or climate change to realize it’s at best “hurr both sides suck” to just tacit acceptance of shit status quotes. Thing is it wouldn’t be as bad if it didn’t draw a similar fandom as Rick and Morty by filling in for nerds where a personality should be with apathy and cringe.
Which, yes, sure bad. But scratch the prevailing political views at Nickelodeon and you’re not going to find much better.
Honestly from Nick? No, Avatar was lightning in a bottle for them they’ve been unable to replicate as they are unwilling to embrace new trends in animation storytelling and instead stick with short form narratives. Tbh Avatar is still a very good ‘babies first propaganda’ and ‘babies first introduction to warcrimes’ without forcing your kid to watch something like ‘Come and See’ or do an analysis of ‘Babylon Berlin’ and what it says about nascant fascism.
mean just gotta look at their stances on LGBTQ issues or climate change
They walked that back a decade ago.
Thing is it wouldn’t be as bad if it didn’t draw a similar fandom as Rick and Morty
You can find plenty of cringe in every fandom.
No, Avatar was lightning in a bottle for them they’ve been unable to replicate
It’s a very classic Hero’s Journey and thick with liberal tropes. Popularity-wise it was a struggle to reproduce in large part because everyone was reproducing it. As soon as they tried to extend the themes of the original, people got mad because it wasn’t their original cast doing the original story.
The episodes on transgender athletes would say otherwise on them “walking it back a decade ago”, also ngl fash and fash adjacent always have a habit of “oh it’s just a joke BRO, I’m sorry I hurt your feeling for realsies” as they backpeddle when attitudes change.
You can find plenty of cringe in every fandom.
Some fandoms are worse than others and have a Venn diagram of who they attract as the most rabid fans. For instance anyone wanna be in the room with a bunch of Sopranos fans that openly celebrate the mob and don’t understand the show is meant to be a depressing take on toxic masculinity.
It’s a very classic Hero’s Journey and thick with liberal tropes. Popularity-wise it was a struggle to reproduce in large part because everyone was reproducing it. As soon as they tried to extend the themes of the original, people got mad because it wasn’t their original cast doing the original story.
Most cartoons rendered as progressive are just diet liberal (I’m not expecting Disney or Nick to put out a Maoist think piece), still be hard pressed to find one during that period that did discuss propaganda and imperialism within it’s limited context. As for copy cat shows I really don’t remember any either because they also never got the lightning in a bottle effect or just fizzled out from lack of fudning (not being supplied enough seasons or time to properly “cook”). The hate for Korra was, at least from what I saw an issue of the themes being very off at times, most apparent with the clear workers/underclass strife vs benders brought up by Amon (who more or less acted a revolutionary expy) and never dealt with again (also Korra more or less becoming a cop for that book). Also the spirits arc was interesting but executed weirdly.
