I get where they’re coming from, but it’s still not great being a guy and only getting vague signals that you’re trying to piece together. Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.
While it may ultimately be those man children who ruin it for everyone, some upfront honesty is generally very appreciated.
vague signals
If a woman gives me vague signals it’s a sign that she’s not right for me. Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no. Which is fine, I’m okay with being alone. But I’m not going to chase someone who hints that they’re into me, because I’m too damn old for that shit.
Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no.
This must be said more frequently. This is the correct attitude. You may be alone longer, but you haven’t terrorized anybody. It’s a net win.
I feel like signals of interest are being conflated with Consent/approval of a date here
No, it’s not. If I’m talking to someone and they look disinterested, that’s not a “hell yes.” If they’re standing there while their four-top is waiting on refills, that’s not a “hell yes.”
A “hell yes” is them asking me questions, or sharing a relatable story. It’s them smiling and looking at me when I talk. A “hell yes” is me asking “would you like to talk alone” and her saying “hell yes.”
Get used to being alone. Learn to love its freedom and spontaneity, and then find someone who’s better than that who says “hell yes.”
Well I’m just saying I’ve had not hell yes signals turned into a hell yes date very quickly when I asked them out. Of course I always ask them very open ended so they have all the chance to say no but I got a “yes of course!”
Sometimes people are just a bit shy or afraid, I know I probably give of pretty meh signals even if I’m crushing hard.
I agree it’s very important not to fool yourself but sometimes you gotta ask to know for sure and I don’t think it’s that black and white all the time
E: love a good Convo down vote no reply… weak sauce.
I don’t think it’s me terrorizing people when they give me clear answers.
Are you pulling a #NotAllMen? Really?
Nope. I think that nobody is terrorizing anyone by receiving clear answers.
But giving the can be a risk for some people.
Taking a risk is not the same as being terrorized
Also, don’t take the disrespect personally. Especially if it’s someone new in your life, they don’t know you deeply enough for that to be a personal thing.
It’s just the game she’s decided is necessary for her safety. It might be perceivable as disrespectful, but security procedures often are. Like if you went to your friend’s house and they demanded to search you for weapons that might seem disrespectful.
But you’re not friends with this person ghosting you. They don’t know who you are. And in some environments, when someone unknown to you comes to your house you pat them down for weapons, even if it diminishes the hospitality.
While it might feel rough for you, it’s worth remembering that a lot of women have faced very real threats of violence for their upfront honesty.
If you’re only getting vague signals then maybe that’s the sign that she’s not fully into you.
I feel like this is very dismissive and also ignores that lots of relationships do inevitably start with vague signals.
“Yeah, well, women have it worse so your feelings are irrelevant and it’s okay if they ghost you.”
As I said in my original comment, I get it. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s a difficult situation for men.
Being dismissive of men’s feelings and not letting them talk about how dating is difficult for them isn’t helping anyone.
I didn’t intend to be dismissive and if my response sounded that way then I apologise.
I agree it’s difficult to be on the receiving end of vague signals, but my perspective is if there’s any annoyance or frustration it should be directed at the violent/angry men who have caused women to feel unsafe.
Helping women feel safer by tackling the violence and misogyny directed at them by men will benefit everyone.
The main thing for me is to remember it’s not personal. When a stranger treats me as a potential threat, it is not an insult to my character.
Being treated as a threat by someone who knows my character, is an insult to my character.
But when a stranger models me as a stranger, it’s not personal at all. It’s not about me. Not a reflection of who I am.
It’s also dismissive of the fact that a lot of women give vague signs as their signs of interest. It’s really just a damned if you do or don’t situation. Either you interpret the vague signals as disinterest and move on, or you read them as a potential go ahead and you’re a dick.
Trying to live so that nobody ever sees you as an asshole is a recipe for depression and regret.
But that’s just circular. Girls can’t be direct because guys are assholes. Guys can’t be direct because they don’t want to be assholes. If standards for one must change, guys being ok with being assholes but being direct with their assertions, then so too must the other change standards, i.e. being direct with their signs.
I didn’t say to be okay with being an asshole.
I think there’s three main reasons for vague signals.
-
They legitimately don’t know how they feel. Maybe they kind of like you but aren’t sure. Recommended: do not pursue. Find someone who is enthusiastic about you. Do you really want to spend your time with someone who can’t make decisions and doesn’t know how they feel? It’s exhausting.
-
They are afraid or uncomfortable, and are trying to avoid upsetting you. Like the comic. Enough men will do just that or worse if they get rejected that being polite can seem safer, even if it makes me man feel like he’s getting mixed signals. You know you’re not like that, but they don’t. Recommended: same as above.
2b. You are talking to someone who can’t leave like a retail worker. Stop bothering the person who can’t tell you to fuck off.
- They aren’t thinking about you at all. Like one time they’re happy to go bowling with you but the next time they blow you off on biking. What gives?? Mixed signals?? Nah dude she just likes bowling.
Love this. Especially 2b. I hated this about working in a cafe.
I’m only talking to you at all because I’m being paid to do so. I’m only smiling because my job is customer service. I’m being nice because you’re a fellow human, not because I want you in any way
I’m only smiling because my job is customer service.
That in many cases smiling is mandatory is a revolting part of customer service in the US.
-
I think one should be rather dismissive of “it would be easier for me if others engaged in behaviours that have resulted in their being abused”.
Your fucking convenience doesn’t come before their sense of safety.
Men can’t reproduce. The fear of never getting a woman to love us is fucking scary to men because our feelings evolved around a total dependence on women to propagate our genes.
For a man, the relationship to a woman is just as valuable as his own body, in terms of viability of his genes. The types of fear we feel reflect this biological fact. We fear death yes, because death means our genes don’t reproduce. We also fear rejection for the same reason.
Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation. Man glad met my wife on a dating app and we communicated properly.
But the comic got real point because there was other thread and women dicussed dating and man the crap they deal with makes you wonder they even bother.
The answer is to flip this psychology/narrative that men have to be the ones to initiate and women are to be demure and play hard to get. Women should be approaching men more and men should be approaching women less.
Also, men need to have more platonic relationships with women and shouldn’t only be interested in, approach and talk to a woman because they want to have sex with them.
Probably best not to be so black and white. It’s probably not a healthy friendship if one of the people in the relationship just want to be friends and the other wants a sexual relationship.
Right. Men should be able to be friends with women without only wanting to have sex with them.
We would have to define “wanting to have sex with them”. I would say 95% of young women are sexually attractive to 95% of straight men. If someone is sexually attractive does that mean “you want to have sex with them”.
David Sedaris did a great story about this I can’t remember the name of the episode. But as a sexual male whenever you see a woman one of the first things you think in your head is “would I have sex with her”. Not “will I” or even “will I pursue” but “would I”. Most of the time, the answer is yes.
Being in an actual relationship and learning and navigating friendships is difficult for all humans.
But to say men should stop wanting to have sex with women is ignorant, and not true to reality. If you don’t like it, I guess too bad? It’s not going to change.
This doesn’t mean we should work on being more empathetic in our relationships to try and understand where others are coming from. We can still be respectful of each others boundaries while wanting to have sex with each other.
But my original point is that it is not really a friend relationship if one person has unrequited feelings the other doesn’t share.
Updated my last comment for clarity
Yeah, for men the likely worst case scenario is embarrassment, women can get straight-up beaten or murdered
If by “embarrassment” you mean “getting arrested or your entire career and life ruined by sexual harassment accusations because you accidentally made someone uncomfortable”. Don’t act as if men are giving up dating in record numbers over “embarrassment”. It’s disingenuous. They’re giving up because guys like the one in the comic cause women to view them all as “creeps”.
How common exactly is someone getting arrested for sexual harrassment just for asking a woman out?
It’s actually not common at all. But the few examples of it happening were bad enough that it has deterred a lot of men from approaching women at all. Plus, regular, reasonable guys don’t like the idea of asking out a woman who’s immediately afraid he’ll kill her if she says no, not just because they don’t like the idea of potentially making her uncomfortable just by approaching her, but also because even if she says yes, a relationship that has that level of fear or distrust right off the bat is doomed. Which of course leads to a vicious cycle, where the only men asking women out are douchebags, and then those women’s perception of men becomes worse. Nobody likes this cycle, but the only way to fix it is for people to be better to each other.
regular, reasonable guys don’t like the idea of asking out a woman who’s immediately afraid he’ll kill her if she says no, not just because they don’t like the idea of potentially making her uncomfortable just by approaching her, but also because even if she says yes, a relationship that has that level of fear or distrust right off the bat is doomed.
You’ll have to excuse my language, but this just pissed me right the fuck off.
Frankly this is a load of bullshit and not a description of how anyone reasonable actually acts. Women getting murdered for rejecting men’s approaches is incredibly common, and you’re fucking placing the blame on women for fuck’s sake. Jesus christ this is just so fucking infuriating. Reasonable men should understand that if they’re not a goddamn murderer then they should be fine.
I made another comment with a list of the top results I got for “woman killed for rejecting man”, which should hopefully drive the point home that this actually is a scarily common problem that women face – the fact that your little fucking feefees get hurt by the idea that women can be wary of men making advances is inconsequential.
Listen. I am not angry at you, but I feel you need to understand a few things.
First of all, attempting to twist what I say to support your existing assumptions about men is not the way to engage in healthy discourse. If you go into a thread looking for something to get offended about, you’ll find it, regardless of whether it’s actually offensive, and if you go into it already totally convinced of your own moral superiority, you lose out on the opportunity to learn something.
Secondly, while I’m on the topic of assumptions, not wanting to approach someone for fear they’ll prematurely judge you is absolutely a reasonable decision. At the very least, it’s hardly more unreasonable than the notion that everyone bigger than you is going to kill you if you say the wrong thing. Yes, obviously it can happen. I’m not arguing that. But if some guy on the internet demanded that you prove to every man you talk to that you’re not going to falsely accuse them of raping you if they tell you they aren’t interested in you, you would rightfully tell him to fuck off, because A) proving intentions is impossible, B) you could just as easily just never talk to men instead of jumping through a bunch of hoops, and C) you should not have to. Besides, if women being murdered for rejecting men is really as scarily common as you claim, then by your logic, having fewer men approaching women is a good thing, and therefore, calling men fragile for giving up on dating is counter-productive to your assumed goal.
And finally, I must say, accusing other people of having “hurt fee-fees” is pretty brazen of you, considering that you’ve done nothing but respond with hostility and insults, whereas I’ve tried to be considerate of your feelings and even straight up apologized to you. Clearly something must happened to you to make you feel the way you do about men, and I sympathize with your situation, but I speak from experience when I say that having trauma does not make a person entitled to spread hatred. As you said, if a man is not a murderer, then in an ideal world, that would be the end of it. But you have made it clear through your words that whether someone is a murderer or not is less important to you than whether or not you fear they could be, and when you judge people by that metric, you become part of the problem you claim to want to solve.
This exact kind of situation does happen all the time. I don’t believe it’s a majority of men at all, but even if it’s a small percentage, that’s still a lot because of the magnitude of their actions. Even if it’s only a 5% chance that rejecting a guy is going to cause them to go completely off the rails, you’re still not going to want to take that chance because there’s nothing in it for you, and in those 5% of cases it’s going to be extremely upsetting, or in some cases, actually physically dangerous to you.
Have you considered being upfront and honest about your feelings? Why are you trying to piece together signals instead of just saying you’re interested?
What made you think they’re not being upfront and honest about their own feelings?
That they desctibe themselves as trying to decipher signals. If they said upfront that they were interested and asked how the woman felt they would presumably get some kind of answer. Ghosting is a pretty clear signal too.
Weird presumption. Someone giving you signals you need to decipher says nothing about how frank you’ve been with them. Some people just give you weird vague signals no matter how directly you ask them.
Ghosting is a pretty clear signal too.
lol
Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.
While that can be annoying, if somebody’s ghosting you, that’s just a signal to move on, yeah? You probably don’t want a relationship with somebody who can’t communicate, anyway.
It’s a shitty signal because it is just not replying to you and not a specific signal on its own. Could be for a bunch of reasons so you’ll have to guess that they’re ghosting you. It takes a while and even then you might not be sure.
It is a clear signal, it says very clearly and in no uncertain terms they don’t want to talk to you.
Your need for “closure” or whatever doesn’t matter.
It could be that you are busy, had some issues, many other reasons. The whole point of a clear signal is that it’s easy to understand and with as little room for misunderstanding, which ghosting is obviously not. If you want to ghost someone, by all means, but it’s def not a clear or direct signal.
Not to mention, I thought the whole point was that you don’t have to be direct and clear about it and hence won’t have to face the possible backlash.
Your need for “closure” or whatever doesn’t matter.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. I didn’t think my “needs” were a subject of the discussion lol
You are the person in this comic.
Also another common third panel would be: not taking no for an answer and pursuing.
@li10@feddit.uk : “I get where they’re coming from, but it can be annoying…”
The person in the comic: “Stupid fat bitch slut!”
Yeah seem about the same
women get like that when they’re rejected too.
Thank you. This is just a reaction shitty people can have regardless of gender. If their fragile ego can’t handle a rejection they go to anger and insults immediately. So bizarre.
Seriously, all the same ‘plays’ too:
- lol rofl you think I was actually asking?
- you’re ugly anyway
- (if the rejection is based on you already being in a relationship) she’s ugly, you’ll never find someone as hot as me
- (if you’re single) you’re gay/you’re a f*ggot
- (slur related to your race, more common if the rejected is of a different race)
Seems like you speak out of experience. Sorry for you. It’s sad that so many people forget how to treat each other respectfully.
Mine and friends, yes. I appreciate the sympathy. I’m with the woman of my dreams now, though, so I’m optimistic I’ll never be exposed to it again. :)
One thing women does that men don’t… Is that they remember every single time you did something dumb, and they will use that as ammunition in every fight.
First, this is not exclusive to women. Men can and do do this. Second, if that’s your experience then you need to hang around with better women. My wife does not do this, even in the very rare instances that we’ve ever had a fight about something. Probably because she’s a normal, mature adult who recognizes that people, including me, make mistakes now and then.
Of course. Not all women will do this. Your wife doesn’t do it, that’s great. But we all have different experiences in life. Everyone gets treated differently. So all these discussions are is about our subjective experiences.
That can be. That doesn’t kill you, though.
None of this kills you
Oh no, emotions! I sure hope there aren’t some damning statistics about how many women die for saying no.
There aren’t?
Young fellas; as a not so young fella who some say used to fuck: Don’t be a dick while thinking with your dick.
It’s that easy. You be you, be whatever you’re interested in, and just use your goddamn eye balls to read if the person is uncomfortable. If they are, smile and fuck off king. Keep it going; don’t be a dick and watch that aura work and that dick get wet.
But remember, you have to genuinely not be a dick. Be yourself, be assertive or not, there’s someone (many someones even) for everyone and never mind the bullshit rules 1 and 2 you self-deluded fucks.
Don’t. Be. A. Dick.
You’ll be happier, the people around you will be happier, and you will fuck and feel good about it while making others feel good about it. Simple secret.
Don’t. Be. A. Dick.
Yeah as a woman who gets plenty of women. Women want to fuck too. If the lady you’re hitting on isn’t reciprocating that’s cool find one who is.
Also your mental and emotional shit being together is way more attractive than it has any right to be. I’m not kidding, I’m moderately attractive but the fact that I can take no for an answer, clean my bathroom, and introspect on my emotions does wonders with the women already attracted to me.
Remember you aren’t gonna turn a no into a yes, but you can turn a yes into a no or a no into a restraining order.
I’m also a not-so-young dude - forgotten generation - and honestly I don’t remember guys being like this. At least, not to women’s faces. Being rejected sucks and is a hit to your self-image, so there was the occasional after-the-fact, booze-fueled name-calling while among the guys, but to must of us, being rejected was something we were embarrassed about and didn’t advertise by sharing.
Our generations - boomers, gen-x - are selfish, greedy, and short sighted. OTOH, from survey of N=1 (my wife) getting this sort of response from men wasn’t a concern.
I mean there is also a massive amount of underreporting of sexual violence from that time and if you were born a man then there’s a good chance that if you were respectful you may have never been in the room where someone was getting assaulted or harassed. That’s not your fault, I’m glad you might not have been one of the shitty people to hurt others, but I’m pretty sure this shit has been happening a long time.
coming from a no-so-old dude who believes in respect and vibing.
This and just not accepting a “no” have been the most common responses in my long lifetime.
Though during the soviet occupation there were also way too many cases of them reporting you to the soviets for some “corrective rape” and/or a trip to siberia because clearly you would be gay if you weren’t interested but that’s thankfully not a thing anymore.
There’s a reason women avoid just outright saying no even if all men wouldn’t react this way: The ones that do make it dangerous.
It’s safest to stay in your dank basement.
However, we all must live before we die, that’s why we take the risk of leaving the basement… till you get a 30 pack of Bush light and some pizza. Then its back to the basement.
I hate this rhetoric. It implies that this a refular occurence. It is just a man hating comment. If this is happening to you frequently, maybe you are the problem. I am tired of being assumed an asshole just because I am a man. It is sexist. Plain and simple.
It’s important to remember it this way:
If you’re in a club with 99 amazing men, and one totally perverted creep who flips to aggression on a dime, guys like that won’t stop after harassing the first woman they meet in the club. By the end of the night, 4 out of 5 women who attended that club have had an experience of a guy hitting on them and getting aggressive when they reject him, and there’s a good chance it’s all the same guy. It doesn’t matter that proportionally there are waaaay more good men at the club, the reality is that almost every woman in that club had a scary experience that night because of a man.
Now that happens every night you go out, if it’s not you getting harassed, it’s your bestie and you need to stick together. Sure, you and your girls are meeting 2 or 3 great guys who you have lovely interactions without. But in the uber home you’re not talking about how nice that bloke and his mates you met on the dance floor was, you’re checking in to make sure your friend is okay after that one guy tried to slip his hand up her skirt while she was ordering at the bar, only to get threatened with rape when she said “please stop that”.
So, yes, it is a regular occurrence, not because the men who do this are regular in the population (though in some areas due to the local subcultures, they are) it’s a regular occurrence because the few men who do this are serial harassers, and for every woman you politely and respectfully flirt with, the assholes are out there harassing 10 or 20 women.
Now I do understand how frustrating it is when we say “Urgh, men” and not “Urgh, specific men who like this”, but when that one creep is a new creep every time you go out, and you’re creeped on every time you go out by the one guy there who is a creep, the other 99 men fade into the background because they aren’t a threat, you don’t need to be vigilant around them, so you aren’t thinking about them. He’s one guy out of 100, but his level of threat and danger dominates the women’s lasting perception of the safety of the space, and why is it unsafe? Because of a man, which man? It could be any man, you won’t know until you interact with them, so until you know, the danger isn’t a man, it’s men. I know that while there are a thousand species of snake only about 30 have a truly fatal bite, but I’m still going to say “I’m afraid of snakes”, even while I’m giving a chill pet carpet python a happy little cuddle.
And it sucks, I’m sorry you get lumped in with assholes due to the way women use language to describe their fears and concerns over some men.
What you’re experiencing is how these bad men effect all people, not just the women they harass. And it’s a great reason to join the social movements working to reduce behaviours of concern among these groups of aggressive men.
But while it’s frustrating that this social issue causes you to feel prejudged as dangerous, at least this social issue isn’t a risk to your physical safety the same way it is for women.
It is a regular occurrence. Ask your female friends about it.
You’re tired? They’re exhausted. Toxic behavior from aggressive men caused this collective fatigue.
Unless you behave like the man in the comic, this isn’t about you.
Maybe instead of pretending this super common thing doesn’t happen, you could encourage other men like I am doing right now.
I hear you. However I think the overall angst is geared towards the perspective that this is most likely outcome from men. I know there are jerks. But we are not all jerks. And he seems to have been told many times it’s assumed he will be a jerk.
For many women, it is a regular occurance. Perhaps if you are frequently being assumed an asshole, maybe you are the problem?
That’s the thing though, I am not the problem, it’s some other asshole that can’t take rejection. He is the problem. Two different people.
The idiotic implication that the behavior of other human beings is your responsibility because they’re the same sex as you is frustratingly common.
The irony is that the people who say stuff like that magically realize how invalid the logic is when it comes to any other demographic–you’d never catch them telling black people that black crime is exclusively their responsibility, for example.
Or, perhaps both genders have assholes among them and we, as a society, have lost our ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex as caring, feeling human beings.
Perhaps if you are frequently being assumed an asshole, maybe you are the problem?
This is a phenomenally stupid sentence, lmao. Maybe he’s the problem if people frequently ASSUME something about him? If they ASSUME?
Wow.
Yes honey, that’s the point, great reading comprehension
Would you also tell a black guy “Perhaps if you are frequently being assumed a criminal, maybe you are the problem?”
Somehow, I have a feeling you wouldn’t. But it’s the exact same ‘logic’.
Yes honey, that’s the point, the logic was dumb so I was flipping it back on them.
Unironically women should be able to say no instead of just ghosting nonstop, just say literally anything. Communication benefits both sides
By ghosting do you mean one time they don’t respond and you move on with your life, or do you mean you reach out multiple times and they don’t respond?
You can pretty quickly determine when you’ve been blocked, that’s how most people ghost.
ITT: men who refuse to believe women. Like every time.
We live in a world which contains certain individuals who make millions of dollars by pretending to be perpetually victimized. A little skepticism is natural. I don’t expect you to fix that, I simply expect you to acknowledge that the problem of shitty men like the one in the comic is a problem of a similar scale and will not be solved overnight. And also that it will not be solved by demonizing men.
No. Clearly it will be solved by men doubting women’s problems. Men are so fragile.
Lashing out doesn’t exactly make you look like a stable, confident individual yourself, nor will it particularly inspire people to take your problems seriously. Just as the douchebag in the comic will not earn the respect or affection of women by calling them bitches, so too will you not convince men to treat you as an equal by immediately calling them fragile. I implore you to reflect on that. It’s better to make friends than enemies.
Sealion detected.
“Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.” - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Sealion is a definition, not an insult.
Fancy quotes don’t make you right.
Neither does trying to apply arbitrary labels to people in an attempt to discredit them. Ad hominem is considered a logical fallacy for a reason. If you think I’m wrong about something, show me why you believe that, and I will concede if your arguments are valid. So far, you’ve instead opted to call me a sealion for suggesting that a socially-harmful blanket generalization like “men are bad and dangerous and don’t respect women” requires more proof than someone’s personal anecdotes and feelings. You’d want proof if someone on the internet was calling black people criminals or women gold-diggers or trans people child molesters, and as I’ve already had to state previously, discrimination and prejudice do not become okay based on how you personally feel about the group you’re discriminating against. If they did, then the douchebag in the comic would be morally justified.
It’s better to make friends than enemies.
Lol. No one needs misogynistic friends. Your polite demeanor belies your refusal to actually listen when women talk to you. It’s pathetically transparent. People like you are why women ghost and refuse to be straight. Just like the comic suggests.
I… legitimately have no idea why you think I’m a misogynist. I say the things I say because I care about and respect women. The last thing I want is for there to be more douchebags out there harassing women because Zoe Quinn or some other sleazy online opportunist with a victim complex stands to make money by diluting the seriousness of women’s problems. Those people are just as bad for you as they are for me. So if I worded that in a way that could be interpreted as misogynistic, then I sincerely apologize, because clearly there was some sort of miscommunication along the line somewhere.
Girl: Sorry, but I’m not interested.
Guy: Stupid fat bitch slut!
Who responds like that?
Edit: Removed unnecessary statement.
Are people with short tempers more likely to get angry at people who are bigger than them, or smaller than them? Smaller, of course.
And there you have it. That explains the entire comic. Both women and men can have short tempers, but it’s way easier for a dude to scream at a woman and not end up dead. So it happens.
This is why they say that, while It’s not all men, it’s almost only men. Because men are bigger and it’s safer for them to be angry and act immature.
So the stereotype is valid. Don’t get butthurt unless you act like the guy in the comic.
I understand what you are saying, and I don’t want to invalidate your concerns. I can see now that this comic resonates with women more than it would with a man.
A somewhat small minority of men do actually act like that and thus it is assumed that all men are definitely going to act like that so they don’t have to risk danger.
It sucks horribly for both sexes but unlikely to be a better solution really
Yeah, this comic could reflect the feelings of women who were unlucky enough to meet such outrageously bad people, or at least have the fear of meeting such a person.
But to say that this is the rule is, I feel, a stretch.
You need to touch grass and talk to more women if you don’t know that most women have experiences exactly like this.
